Strap yourselves in for a laughter-filled journey with your favorite hosts Sam and Sonia. We kick off with a whimsical game of "Would You Rather?" where we grapple with the herculean task of choosing between facing a thousand ant-sized bulls or one bull-sized ant! We dive deep into our personal ant encounters and weigh in on the bizarre scenarios at hand. It's a hilarious roller-coaster you don't want to miss!
Shifting gears, we then delve into the less humorous but equally important topic of navigating tough conversations and setting boundaries. Sharing pearls of wisdom from our own experiences, we guide you through the process of preparing for these crucial interactions, shedding light on understanding the other person's viewpoint and the importance of self-care when things don't go as planned. Let us help you maneuver the rocky road of difficult discussions.
Finally, we reflect upon the dynamics of friendship, discuss our varying levels of independence, and debate our driving preferences. We wrap up with a heartfelt note on communication and how it serves as the bedrock of maintaining strong bonds between friends. Hop on board for an episode rife with laughter, practical advice, and tales from our lives. Get ready for a fun-filled journey, and let's break it down together, mentally that is!
Instagram @mentalbreakitdown
Email: mentalbreakitdown@gmail.com
Logo Artwork: artofandoy.com
Connect with us of you have questions, want to be on the podcast, or have topics you want discussed!
Strap yourselves in for a laughter-filled journey with your favorite hosts Sam and Sonia. We kick off with a whimsical game of "Would You Rather?" where we grapple with the herculean task of choosing between facing a thousand ant-sized bulls or one bull-sized ant! We dive deep into our personal ant encounters and weigh in on the bizarre scenarios at hand. It's a hilarious roller-coaster you don't want to miss!
Shifting gears, we then delve into the less humorous but equally important topic of navigating tough conversations and setting boundaries. Sharing pearls of wisdom from our own experiences, we guide you through the process of preparing for these crucial interactions, shedding light on understanding the other person's viewpoint and the importance of self-care when things don't go as planned. Let us help you maneuver the rocky road of difficult discussions.
Finally, we reflect upon the dynamics of friendship, discuss our varying levels of independence, and debate our driving preferences. We wrap up with a heartfelt note on communication and how it serves as the bedrock of maintaining strong bonds between friends. Hop on board for an episode rife with laughter, practical advice, and tales from our lives. Get ready for a fun-filled journey, and let's break it down together, mentally that is!
Instagram @mentalbreakitdown
Email: mentalbreakitdown@gmail.com
Logo Artwork: artofandoy.com
Connect with us of you have questions, want to be on the podcast, or have topics you want discussed!
Welcome to Mental Break it Down, a podcast for therapists and the therapy curious, where we dig into all things mental health and mental health adjacent. We're so happy you're here, let's jump in. It is what it is today. I don't care, weird hair, don't care.
Sonia:Yeah, I just, you know, sprayed on some dry shampoo and called it a day.
Sam:Looking great.
Sonia:You know, oh, where's my iced coffee? There it is.
Sam:Jingle.
Sonia:It's the obligatory iced coffee shake.
Sam:I know I always have to balance the like editing to where I don't get rid of the sound too much of the coffee, but it also sounds good, it's my favorite sound, because you know, something delicious is in this cup or not, or not, it could be water Boring.
Sonia:Drink your water, it's fine. How should we start? Welcome to Mental. Break it Down, I think now.
Sam:The best thing for us to do is continue with the unhinged, would you rather?
Sonia:Oh no, I really like it. Do you not like it? I like it. I just don't know what's going to happen.
Sam:It's a mystery.
Sonia:Okay, I'm embracing it.
Sam:I'm embracing it, let's go Would you rather fight 100 ant sized bowls or one bowl sized ant?
Sonia:At first I thought you said bowl as in. Like no bowl Bowl with horns B-U-L-L. Okay, I thought you said B-O-W-L, like what is a bowl? Why would I want to?
Sam:Why would you be fighting bowls Exactly? You said you're being lazy today.
Sonia:I thought you were just you know, didn't care what you're saying, you know I'm taking to an N-C-8. Okay, did you say 100 or 1000? 1000? 100. Ant sized bowls.
Sam:Yeah, would you rather fight? Oh, 1000 ant sized bowls, or one singular bowl sized ant, oh my gosh.
Sonia:You know I have like a thing with ants, did I never tell you? No, I've been living in India for you know a handful of years. The red hot ants, what do they call it? Fire ants, fire ants are terrifying in India and so as a kid I would get bit a lot Like painful, painful, and so I don't like ants, even the little like black ones that are harmless, like I can't.
Sam:Like sugar ants. Yeah, I can't.
Sonia:I cannot, I cannot, so I think.
Sam:I have brought forth and offered you a literal nightmare.
Sonia:Yeah, what is it with you? Because the other day it was about dust on my fingers, cheeto fingers or sweating mayonnaise. Oh, okay, I think, because of my issues with ants, I am going to pick one bowl sized ant and try my best to get rid of it, and I don't like killing things. Yeah, yeah.
Sam:Imagine a giant ant. Yeah or a thousand. Very Well, I mean because there's, we'll go with even the slightly bigger ant sized bowls. So a little, tiny little.
Sonia:I feel like one giant ant could do more harm than the tiny bowls. Have you ever watched?
Sam:honey and I shrunk the kids. Yes, the ant that ends up spoiler alert dying because they're very tiny, so it's huge, uh-huh, so you're imagining that?
Sonia:Yes, exactly, here's a question.
Sam:Let's dive deep. Would the ant that's a giant act like a bowl, or is it just an ant? So it's just like hanging out.
Sam:Well, you didn't say that, but here's the thing. Have you seen the microscopic photos of ant faces? Yes, imagine that, but you can see it. So, like essentially, honey, I shrunk this. Kids was a giant lie. That ant looked too nice. It did not look monster enough. We had no idea, though. Are you trying to get me to change my answer? No, I'm just saying these are, yeah, considerations. It's going to be.
Sonia:It'll be a disgusting fear based interaction.
Sam:But yeah, I'm going to go with. I just imagine you like wildly swinging with your eyes closed while screaming With a broom.
Sonia:You know that it's going to be. It's going to be my Dyson vacuum. What's a vacuum? A broom?
Sam:This isn't an actual ant. It's the size of a large bull it's like taller than you.
Sonia:I'm good at. What else do I have? A shovel, my vacuum, a broom, you can buy anything.
Sam:This is a hypothetical situation. You can arm yourself with anything, Okay but how can I lift something Like?
Sonia:I know I can lift a swing, a broom really well.
Sam:What about a pitchfork, a gun?
Sonia:Well, a, I don't know how to use a gun, so that's out, and I don't think that's the time to learn. Okay, a pitchfork, sure, a shovel? Great, yes, one of those like pointy shovels, what are they called? Like the ones that? A spade? Yes, that Great. Give me that. Sure, one ant. I think I have better luck with one thing than a thousand. Also, like a thousand little critters all over the floor. I cannot.
Sam:Oh, if you have shoes on, you, just smush them. I would choose the thousand bull size ants. I mean ant sized bulls. You know I don't wear shoes in my house. Who's saying that these things are in your house? Because I just imagine all these things happening in my house.
Sonia:No one's in your house, sonia, I imagine these things happening in my sanctuary, in like my safe place the Cheeto, dust, the mayonnaise, the ants.
Sam:For all of these scenarios, you're just standing in your house crying.
Sonia:Yes, okay, okay. So why would you?
Sam:pick the other. They're teensy-tinesy. If they poke you it could hurt a little bit, but not actually injure you, right, yeah, a thousand sounds like a lot, but you've probably seen a thousand ants on an ant hill before.
Sam:You just keep stomping Right. I would be more worried if the thousand ants were outside of the ant hills to where I had to kill them. The rest of them would come out like the little bulls and the little hill. If they behaved like ants which they probably wouldn't because they're bulls, they're just the size of ants I feel like you're-.
Sam:So just imagine like Creating the situation to Imagine a rodeo like arena. Put a thousand ants in it, but they look like bulls. Is that scary? I just the sheer number it would take up like a square foot. It's not it's nothing. I'm still keeping my answer.
Sonia:I'm still keeping my answer.
Sam:You keep your answer and die during a trial by ant, like at least I'll go out and try. I will stomp a thousand bulls to death tiny tiny bulls, and then I'm going to go get a corn dog. Everything is fine, I'm fine With your there's no risk to me.
Sonia:Cheeto dust hands.
Sam:I'm stomped by tiny little horns a couple times, but I could wear boots.
Sonia:That's so interesting how differently we answer and also the space that we imagine these things happen.
Sam:I feel like my answer makes sense. I feel like you're making it more trouble than it's worth Always.
Sonia:But it's your choice.
Sam:This is a would you rather.
Sonia:Yeah, I'm like one and done. Give me the one thing Let me beat it with my broom. I'm going to stomp ants.
Sam:I'm going to have a margarita and a corn dog in hand and I'm going to go to your house and watch you fight a giant ant with a broom.
Sonia:Yes, and I'm going to stick it with the pointy end Reference. Did you ever see it? Yes, okay, I was like, if you don't get, it we're not friends. Maybe he said it's not a movie, what? What are you talking about?
Sam:I was imagining the honey eye shrunk the kids. What are you talking about?
Sonia:Stick it with the pointy end. Game of Thrones.
Sam:You know I don't recall information, sonia. Oh, I've seen every episode but I cannot tell you most anything that happened, except for the big overarching things. But it's nice though, because every couple of years I can go back and watch things, and it's a surprise.
Sonia:Wow. So I'm just out here making references and you're like yeah, you don't even know what I'm talking about.
Sam:Yeah, it's been like this the whole time.
Sonia:Oh, my God, and I've told you this.
Sam:Wow, don't hold out hope for me to remember details, because it's not going to have-. I could watch an episode of Housewives with you and then, right after you make a reference, I probably won't get it. My brain does not work that way. Oh, I have to be beaten to my head repeatedly over years With a broom. Yeah, that's why I still recite Anchorman quotes. So yeah. Okay, what Are you embarrassed of me now? No, of course not.
Sonia:I just am trying to recall if I've seen that movie Anchorman I have. Yeah, don't remember much of it. It's not my kind of humor. What are we talking about today? You said you had something.
Sam:I do have something. I've noticed a theme I feel like with client work there'll be weeks where several people come in with similar issues.
Sonia:I don't know what that is. It happens.
Sam:I've heard that with people, yeah, and I've noticed it several times and it's different on the season anyway. So I want to talk about hard conversations, so having difficult conversations, and when I say that, what I mean is either you are a person that is gearing up to, or would like to, have a difficult conversation with somebody, and what that might look like, how you could approach it, plan for it, knowing you can't control what the other person does. And then also it could look like somebody's come to you and said you're doing this and I don't like it, or hey, we need to have a talk.
Sonia:Ooh, we need to have a talk.
Sam:Hey, can you get together? We need to have a talk. Or they're giving you maybe some sort of feedback that you're trying to digest and decide if it's something you need to consider, or they're just being overdramatic those types of things, because I've noticed several clients wrestling with that right now.
Sonia:Yeah, so are we personalizing it or are we talking like therapeutic wise?
Sam:I would say probably therapeutic wise, okay, but who cares? You can also leave in whatever you want to or what you would do.
Sonia:Hey, I really dislike the hey, we need to have a talk or hey, I need to talk to you without any context. I really dislike that. So, being on the receiving end of that and also saying that to people without any context, I have learned to say, even if it's like a text to my best deal, you know, hey, I need to talk to you and then I will follow it up with. Everything's fine. It's not about you or me, it's not important. But I need to talk to you or it needs to be alone time. I will give some sort of context, because I don't like the feeling of that anticipatory of like, what is it? Is it about me?
Sam:Is it about us, but if everything isn't fine and it is about us, that's, I feel like it's kind of the same thing, but I will say it, I will say it Okay For me, I and I would like that to be shared with me also.
Sonia:So, for example, if you were like Sonia, we need to talk, Give me some context. So I'm not just reeling.
Sam:I'm mad at you.
Sonia:Sure.
Sam:And we need to have a conversation.
Sonia:Yes.
Sam:How you have wronged me and my family.
Sonia:There you go, there you go, yes, and then I know exactly okay, it's not, she's not dying. We're not talking terminal illness. Nothing catastrophic is having. This is something we can work through.
Sam:So for you it's like if you are the one preparing to have a talk, maybe keep in mind the how the approach would affect the other person and the impact that that statement has on people. Because it's oh it's connected usually with something negative.
Sonia:Right, we need to have a talk, yeah.
Sam:It's not. I love you and we're doing great.
Sonia:No, when was the last time someone had a positive, amazing conversation with you? And it was you know. The lead up to that was hey, we need to talk. No at least not in my experience, you know, right, you're right. Usually there's like a negative or a painful conversation that's about to happen.
Sam:Yeah, I also know people to where it's hard because you want to give information to prepare somebody. But if I walked up to them and said, hey, I want to talk about this, talking about it right then usually is like it's an overwhelm situation. Yes, so I need to say, hey, I need to talk to you about this, this and this. Do you think you could be in a headspace to be able to receive that? When would that be a good time, Instead of just like busting into the place and being like we need to have a talk right now? That's also a thing that can be unkind, depending on what the topic is and like how deep it has to go. The other person's energy level. Yeah.
Sam:But also, like it might be, that you need to have that conversation in the moment like as a behavior that's going on. That is whatever it is, it's negative for you or impacting you in a negative way. Yeah, and so in the moment, correction, you can't really prepare for that.
Sonia:I would imagine, with parents. Sometimes those conversations have to happen in the moment with children or teenagers, like hey, we're trying to correct this behavior and you need to do it right now. And, like you said and I've been on, I've been there as well where I've needed something in the moment from whoever and I needed to have the conversation, like right now eight. I could not wait. And so I mean current Sonya doesn't do that, but past Sonya has.
Sam:Yeah, it's because I can't deal with my own discomfort about this and process that, so I need to hand it to you right now. Right, and you need to fix it. Yes, which is unfair, depending on the situation. This is all with the overarching. It depends it depends. Yeah, just disclaimer from the get go. This is all.
Sonia:How about you? How do you approach? If you're the one who needs to have the conversation? How do you approach it?
Sam:That is hard sometimes and it's a skill that I'm still. I feel like all of us are continually learning because also, every relationship is different, so you approach different people in different ways. I was often that person that's like I'm feeling uncomfortable or I'm mad about something and we're going to talk about it right now, regardless of how you're feeling, because I feel bad, I need you to fix it or I need you to also feel bad with me, which I tried to drop a long time ago. But if First and this is I think this is a discussion I have with clients a lot it's okay.
Sam:Before we have the conversation, let's really figure out why we're having a conversation, being as clear as you can about, like what the request is in the conversation, like, is there a behavior changes or something you like them to be more mindful about or care for you in a different way? And also what is expectation like when you're done with the conversation, what does that look like? And also, if the conversation doesn't go the way you wanted to, what does that look like for you? You can't control the other person. How do you then approach this relationship and being as prepared as possible for that, just with the different scenarios, to know how you need to care for yourself if it doesn't go the way you want it to. I try to do that. I fail miserably often. It's a practice, yeah Right.
Sam:So, I don't know. It depends also because, like for me, it's easier for me to talk to somebody who is going through it and support them through it than it is for me being activated in my own body, trying to use my frontal lobe to be a person to another person. Sometimes it's hard, so that's why sometimes the conversation doesn't absolutely have to happen unless there's a danger for me you mean like an idiot. I try to always take time to really just center myself and ground myself and ask myself those questions.
Sonia:I think a good point you brought up is what is the intention? Is this a? When we say conversation, it means there's a two-way exchange. Maybe there's more than two people involved.
Sam:Not a lecture.
Sonia:It's not a lecture. So is this a situation where you just need to be heard and you don't want any feedback, you don't want any dialogue. Is it that, or is it truly a conversation? I think that might be the first step, Because sometimes for me, I'm like no, I just need you to listen and I don't want and yes, that can come off as we're not receptive, right, but sometimes we just need to be heard and then maybe we can come back, but maybe in that event it's just being heard and so, yeah, the intention is important.
Sam:And also considering the patterns of the other person. Is this a longstanding relationship where you've talked to them about this topic before and they continue? The behavior? Is talking to them about it again actually going to sink in? You can't force somebody to have a discussion, change something, receive something. So it's also considering like is this the best place for my energy to go? Has this situation, relationship maybe run its course and has changed how I'm going to interact with it? Do I need distance actually from this person? Because I feel like sometimes we have those hard conversations and it's just like grabbing somebody by the lapels and being like you hurt me, listen to me.
Sonia:Or.
Sam:I need this. Listen to me, I mean. That's not a very motivating thing, and if you're continually screaming into the void, is it a question then of do I need to change my approach or my understanding of how to connect with this person, or are they just refusing or unable to receive?
Sonia:What if the person you're trying to talk to just doesn't hear you and refuses to hear you, but, like it's a spouse or a long time partner or a parent, someone that you can't easily walk away from?
Sam:That is really really tough, because these are people that you are more so connected to than coworkers, sometimes some secondary, tertiary friends. For me, it's kind of always the question of you can't and this is a learning process for me too. As hard as you want to and as much as you think you're effective, you can't really change somebody unless that's something they want to work on.
Sonia:Yeah, we all have agency and autonomy right? You can't, you don't have control over other people, All you can do is ask for consideration and care.
Sam:This is actually what I need to feel stable in this relationship, to feel loved. Is that something that you think you can do and are you okay being in a relationship with this person if things don't change? Can you accept them how they are currently presenting to you? Because I think that it, and from just experience and just seeing what happens, you keep pushing and it becomes this point of resentment and contention and stress on the relationship that if you can't actually change what's causing that, is it okay to just not have it and be okay how it is?
Sonia:That particular part.
Sam:Yeah, those are good questions and that's really hard if somebody is actually hurting you or not caring for you, or it's a toxic relationship or something bringing really negative vibes or causing you anxiety in your life then it's what do you need to do to care for yourself? Is that distance? But also I mean, this is multi-layered, This- is deep, oh yeah.
Sam:But it's a question of okay. Say, a parent is causing feelings of anxiety, they're not listening to you, it's always about them, right Then? Is it do I care for myself by pulling away? How will that be received by the parent? Is it something to, if we have a conversation beforehand, be like when you do this, it makes me feel this way. So to care for myself, because it'd be unfair to ask you to change if you don't want to. I'm actually not going to be here as often, or I might leave early or putting that gets into a boundary conversation.
Sam:I feel like for me, if you do this, then and sticking to it, but is it? It's the question like is it kind to have that conversation? Yes, is that person going to receive the conversation of? Here's my new boundary to protect myself Maybe, who knows?
Sonia:Yeah.
Sam:But it's also a disservice. If you just pull away for no reason, then that's might be confusing for the other person.
Sonia:I just I'm reminded of all the times I've had to have really hard talks or bring up something really difficult with my parents, and how terrified I've felt and it's like a. It's a physical feeling, it's not just forecasting oh, this is going to happen. Of course that that was there, but I literally felt it in my body. I know I need to have this conversation, and maybe it's not with a parent, maybe it's with your spouse, maybe it's with a really close friend, maybe it's with a business partner. Right, and for me, anytime I've had to have those like life changing conversations and literally life changing. I have felt it in my body and so then the the emotions that we're talking about, it's then intensified, because now I'm feeling it in my body too, you know, yeah.
Sam:I mean, how was that? How did that show up for you in your body?
Sonia:And so it's. It's in my chest, it's shaking, my hands are shaking, my hands are cold, but I'm sweating at the same time, like a rush of adrenaline Absolutely.
Sam:Yeah.
Sonia:Yeah, and it's almost like you black out, but you're present. Dissociation yes. Yeah.
Sonia:Yeah, and I don't know what it's like for the other person, because I know what I'm feeling in my body. But and I'm bringing it back to speaking to parents and family members and spouses that could again, I'm always going to bring it back to culture and I am personalizing it. That would be so hard for someone like me to say, mom, I have to cut you off or I have to set these boundaries, when those boundaries maybe have never existed before, but now you need them to exist because you're talking about something really important to you. Yeah.
Sonia:You know and, like you said, you don't know how it's going to land with them. You don't know what the outcome is, and just that discomfort is really tough.
Sam:It's really hard to let go of the fortune telling Uh-huh. You don't know how somebody is going to react. Uh-huh. It's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Uh-huh. To where you'll approach it as if they're going to act. So then you might be extra defensive.
Sonia:Right, and I think that is why I always try to give a little bit of context. Hey, I need to talk to you, everything is fine. It's just about work. Yeah, hey, I need to talk to you. We're good. It's about the house, or it's about what we're eating for dinner next week?
Sam:Whatever it is, and I mean you talked about something that I feel like I mean I've struggled with too, and I hear many people struggle with. It's also like how do I have a hard conversation when my whole body shuts down? Uh-huh. How do I have a hard conversation? If the second something leaves my mouth, I start crying. Mm-hmm. And it's like I can't control it, and so then it's like, what are these tears here for?
Sonia:And it muddies up the message, yeah, and the tears can be received in so many different ways. Yeah. By the other person or people.
Sam:Yeah.
Sonia:Or is she and I'm, just you and me? Are they crying because they're sad? Are they crying because they're mad? Are they crying because they're weak? I mean? All of those things. Or maybe you're crying because you're frustrated at yourself.
Sam:I'm a big fan of having a conversation like I know. I'm crying right now. I'm feeling very overwhelmed. I'm not actually mad. I'm frustrated and articulating like you might see me violently shaking right now because A, b and C. But to your point again, like can you really preface that or explain yourself in that way when you have tunnel vision or two seconds away from just absolutely just passing away?
Sonia:Yeah, no, that's what it feels like it's terrifying. Sometimes that's a skill we've had to develop.
Sam:Yeah, I didn't have that skill. I still struggle with it.
Sonia:Absolutely yeah, no.
Sam:That's why it's important at least for me to take time to process all of that, so you're coming in more clear with your intention and not just upset and crying Like if you could just please do the dishes. How many times I have to ask you to care for me? It's all on my shoulder and then it's like no, it's not. You're actually. Also, the way that you're feeling might not actually be fair, because and I'm speaking- from personal experience like okay, care tasks, household tasks, right.
Sam:Just because you think it needs to be done doesn't mean it actually needs to get done.
Sonia:Yeah, it does.
Sam:It's like shush, Can you pull back and look at it objectively, Like are you actually the only one doing this thing?
Sonia:But everything could be. You could make a case for any of it and all of it, right, if you have.
Sam:But I'm saying if you need to take some time to be more objective, if you possibly can to consider if all not all angles, but more angles than just like what you're.
Sonia:At least beyond just your angle.
Sam:Yes, and I mean, that's how you care for the person you're in a relationship with. But also, yeah, sometimes you need to get your ass up and you do some shit around this house.
Sonia:The dishes are piling up, the laundry hasn't been folded in two weeks, the dog needs to go to the groomer, we need to go to the dentist. Things are fallen by the wayside. Pick up the slack. How about the other side? What is it like for you, or how would you support and guide someone through being on the receiving end of hey, I need to talk or we need to talk? How do you feel when someone comes at you with that?
Sam:White hot panic.
Sonia:Uh-huh See. All the more reason for some context.
Sam:I mean, you've even brought simple things to me and say, hey, we need to talk about something. Something is fine, but it's sort of about this Can you talk in half hour? I'm like we're talking now because I am in discomfort and I hate it and it's something so fine and not a big deal at all.
Sonia:We need sticky notes.
Sam:But I mean this also connects at least for me it connects to development attachment. Your upbringing Were you yelled at all the time for being in trouble. So then now when someone says, hey, I need to talk, but we're fine, but your brain still goes to I'm in trouble, I failed somehow. It's also that plays into it heavily. Also, and I think it's kind of the same if, like, a client comes to me and said, hey, my friend had this conversation with me or wants to have this conversation with me, and it's about this Like what do I do? It's thinking like okay, what are they trying to say? How do you feel? Like that's how you've shown up or that's what you've done, how do you feel about the situation? And trying to pull back and help them be objective about it to kind of see the interplay.
Sonia:And also you have no control over the other person, what they will say when they will say it.
Sam:Yeah, you could have felt like you did and you look at it objectively. You actually don't feel like you wronged or did something inappropriate, whatever it is. You don't feel it's true, but it's still very true to the other person and it could be that, no matter what you do to explain or defend or understand, they're just that's it, yeah. So then also, how do we sit with the fact that this relationship might not be repairable? This relationship might be on pause for a while, this relationship just might need to look different. It's, it's the whole therapist.
Sonia:It depends. It really does, and I don't like giving that answer, but it really does depend. I am for me when someone tells me and not not in the therapeutic space, but just in my personal life if someone says I need to talk to you or we need to have a talk, I immediately think they're going to tell me that they're dying. Interesting, not that they're mad at you, but something terrible is happening.
Sonia:Yes, something terrible is happening, and usually it is happening to them, and it's usually health related. That's the. I'm not saying that that's been the outcome, but in my mind I automatically assume they are in pain, they are dying, they're sick, they're not doing good Interesting.
Sam:Cause I immediately my go to. My first thought is I did something wrong, I'm in trouble and yours is. Oh my God, they're dying.
Sonia:Yes, I mean if it was a parent, then I would think I did something wrong. But if it's like a sibling, a friend, coworker, I usually think something's happening to them and I'm I need to prepare myself and I'm really scared. Oh my God, yeah, and I want them to be okay.
Sam:Yeah, there was a period in time when we suffered a lot of loss and hospitalizations with family members, and so now a caregiver of mine is very they'll call and the first thing they say is no one's dead, everything is fine, see, because for ages the only time that they needed to call was to update us on hospital stuff or to tell us.
Sonia:somebody has passed away Like right, Depending on your family situation, depending on the environment that you were raised in. Maybe the only time people have those talks is when someone is dying or something catastrophic is happening.
Sam:Because it's not an everyday informal relationship.
Sonia:Right, it's not a I need to talk about my feelings or how you made me feel. It's like someone is dying, someone died, someone is ill. The house caught on fire or something like that. Something catastrophic. Yeah.
Sam:Live Well. I mean, these we're talking about like larger scale, more potentially like serious conversations, but practicing and getting comfortable with those can happen in the everyday interactions. I think a great place to start is with your therapist. Okay, no, but really in session.
Sonia:If you feel like maybe you didn't get something right or something didn't land with your client for me, I always use that as an opportunity to say, hey, I said this and I am unsure if this landed the way that I intended to, and then that is an opportunity to have that conversation. It's not comfortable because you might have to tell your therapist, yeah, you kind of hurt my feelings or yeah, you got that real wrong, but that's what we want.
Sam:That's what we need.
Sonia:So your therapist is a great place person to practice those hard conversations with Absolutely Uh-huh and we've had to have them with our clients.
Sam:Yeah, I usually preface with hey, I'm picking up on something here. There's a large chance that it's incorrect or I'm wrong. I often am. Feel free to tell me if this doesn't land with you, and then I discuss what I'm seeing and then it's like, how does does that feel accurate? Am I understanding? And it's those little moments when it's like, no, but yes, great that they do get to practice voicing their feelings.
Sonia:Yeah, and we're not going to just abandon or leave. We are still there to process through that. So, wow, did we answer the questions? I?
Sam:feel like we go off and I gave like a whole bunch more questions because it depends.
Sonia:Yeah, point is, if a client in session or if you're in therapy asking your therapist how should I do this, what should I say? It's an. It's a chance to really process through that. What are you feeling? What are the intentions? How would you feel if fill in the blank happens?
Sam:Also something I think gets pushed away. It's the what do you want? Uh-huh. Like what's important to you, because often I see people trying to care for others or save their relationship out of sacrifice for themselves, without actually asking themselves what they would like in the situation or how they would like the relationship to be, or if it serves them.
Sonia:Because it often feels selfish, unsafe.
Sam:Unsafe Because it's community, and community is safety, and so to lose pieces of your community is to feel alone. Oh yeah, and unsafe. Yeah, at the very core, and we're wired to be with other people. Yeah, it's hard to do this life by yourself, cause I mean, you know back in the day caveman situation like if you weren't accepted in the community, you were off on your own and you'd probably die. So in the very deep parts of our brain. It's like that's why it feels so unsafe Because it was unsafe.
Sam:I mean it still is for many people.
Sonia:Well, you have to be vulnerable and expose your feelings and what you've been possibly holding in, and then you are laying it all out for the other person to do what they will with it. And like you said, the forecasting. You don't know what the outcome is gonna be, and I think part of that, at least for me, is where the anxiety comes up is I don't know how it's going to land and what they're going to do with it.
Sam:The anxiety of ambiguity.
Sonia:Yes, and not knowing so, then maybe subconsciously I do give context to kind of control the situation. Probably great. There we go. We got to the back end. Don't run away yet.
Sam:Don't disconnect from me, this is fine. Yeah, yes, I mean, it is a caring thing to do, to be considerate in the way that you approach these conversations. Like I said, you don't wanna just run up if people start screaming how upset you are, because what are you gonna do? It's immediate, defensive and protective Cause. What is happening? Because, even though you're in the headspace for that conversation, this is a complete surprise for the other person. So I think it's caring that you do that. Thank you, I'm working on it. We're all work in progress. Just texting furosiously. Why are you a bitch? I'm also. I don't even know how I would answer that.
Sam:I think, I've asked you that, but it was ingest. I also. I have my friend group is more blunt.
Sonia:Yes.
Sam:Yeah, then quote unquote other people or normal people? I don't know how you categorize us. People that are not your friends. People that are not my friends and so my longterm friend. It's literally like in the movie. Like you are being bitchy right now. Like you either need to stop that or tell me what's going on. It's like oh, I am being crazy, and so there wasn't that like buildup of resentment, often on their part.
Sonia:They didn't actually. You didn't have to tiptoe around it.
Sam:They've taught me a lot about how it can be really healthy in the moment to be like, hey, what's happening here? Cause I'm seeing these three things happening and it feels really bad.
Sonia:Can we talk about it, but you have that relationship with each other and you've built that together.
Sam:She's done that since day one. Okay, it was me who struggled with having those conversations and holding resentments and being bratty, honestly, sometimes, cause she was just like we worked on that with each other to where it's like, yes, that's true, but have you considered my feelings? She's like, oh, that's right, and then I'm like I will be more forthcoming and actually stop being so bratty. It's like, and also we were growing up together to where it's like you're trying to figure out, like it's okay that your friend is doing something different or disagrees with you. It doesn't mean the relationship is broken, yeah, it just means you're people with brains. Yeah, that's it. And so we've grown up with that together and worked on that together. But I greatly appreciate the fact that she comes out and just says things. Sometimes I'm prepared for it and sometimes I'm not, but I think that it's to your point that we have a relationship and I'm very used to her style. So it's not surprising when she just turns around and just goes hey, what's up with you?
Sonia:First of all, how dare you have other friends? How dare you?
Sam:use you. Text me that while you're actively hanging out with other people.
Sonia:This is true.
Sam:I'm like, I'm thinking of doing this and you're like, oh, how dare you? I've been wronged, while you're eating delicious food with other people and not me. I don't know about that, but. I mean, you haven't even cooked me anything yet I will cook you food.
Sonia:How dare you, I'm making your friend food here's the thing that I just here's the thing that just popped up for me.
Sonia:I had a friend, very good friend, who is a few years older than me, so they've lived life and they've been through different things in their life. And I actually took this very problem to my friend. Like hey, I need to have this talk with someone. I am terrified, I'm scared and I have a feeling I know the outcome and I've been putting it off for years. And she literally said sometimes you just have to rip the band-aid off, like you just have to. You've gone so many years avoiding this conversation, you've avoided the pain. It's time to rip off the band-aid, because you can't put it off anymore.
Sam:For you was it like trying to find the perfect time and like present it in a way that you feel like would mitigate any risk?
Sonia:Yep, absolutely Perfect time, perfect place, perfect scenario. The temperature had to be right, the sun had to be shining. Like are they in a good mood? Exactly Like did they eat?
Sam:Yes, okay.
Sonia:And she was like rip off the band-aid, it's time. What would you do with that? Like, is there moments where it is just you have to do it?
Sam:Sure, I mean that's also up to you, like, if you agreed with that or not.
Sonia:I didn't agree with it in the moment, but hindsight she was absolutely right. She was, and I wish I would have done it sooner.
Sam:Well, hey.
Sonia:This is hindsight.
Sam:And it sounds like that that was a good lesson for you to learn and because it was so difficult, you won't forget it.
Sonia:No, this was over 10 years ago now. So yeah, I still remember it In my brain. I still hear her in my thoughts Rip off the band-aid, Sonya, Just do it. Yeah, exactly.
Sam:And I think sometimes we think things to death, we consider things to death and we put things off. But we're not gonna be perfect at this or even good at this. Quite often it's a learning thing, it's a muscle memory situation. You have to go through the hard things where it's not ideal, to learn and do better. So what I love to have offered Sonya 10 years ago is the ability to skirt all those feelings of discomfort. Sure, but I think that sometimes those things are also those hard things are needed in order for you to figure out what works for you and also to see, apparently that friend was a really good friend that cared about you and was trying to support you, even though you didn't agree with them at the time, I think she also got tired of me complaining, which I don't blame her, but it was in the moment.
Sonia:It was good, solid advice from a trusted friend that felt unsafe at the moment, but I took the advice anyways. Actually, yeah, I did and the outcome was as I expected, but I still took the advice and I still wish I would have done it sooner.
Sam:It's that whole like what does it cost you? Yeah? I asked like am I being? True to myself, at what cost? And avoiding this conversation right now. I'm not caring for myself. I'm miserable, maybe.
Sonia:What are you missing out on? And if the answer is nothing, or I'm okay missing out on that, then great. But yeah, ask yourself those questions.
Sam:Well, when you go to somebody and you ask, you're asking do you care for me to fix this? And the risk of them rejecting that and saying essentially, I do not wanna care for you in that way. Ouch, yeah, it's a big risk. It is Ew feelings. Why can't everybody just like not have to have a hard conversation, just do everything I want.
Sonia:Don't you wish that life was just like cotton, candy and sprinkles and no Tacos and margaritas, I'll take tacos. Okay, me too actually.
Sam:Well, here's the thing. It's the you can't. It's harder to enjoy the good and the beautiful without the difficult and the ugly parts right. They bounce off each other and make each other heightened. Yeah.
Sonia:I mean it's part of this life. All of it is part of this life.
Sam:Do I love having hard conversations? Ew, no, who wants it? I will say that I'm far better at it therapeutically with clients having difficult conversations than I have in my own personal life. But I've gotten way better and it's also just because I'm getting older. I'm done like you're tired. It's just like, okay, is this relationship worth it? No, okay, I'm bye, like here's why I'm leaving and I guess I'll see you around. I'm lucky I rarely do have to do that. I'm also very selective now with who I connect with and who I let in, because I don't wanna have to weed relationships out or deal with challenges like that later on down the line. It's just like I need to see that you're in this as much as I am and you're as excited about this relationship as I am.
Sam:otherwise, I'm not gonna put in more work than you are Sometimes it has to balance out, but overall, I need the other person to be just as invested in obsessed with me as I am with them.
Sonia:Yes, I agree, be obsessed with me. I agree, I think the older we get, we have limited amount of time and energy and space, and so those relationships and you put in a lot in your friendships and relationships. So, yeah, you also need the back and forth. Yeah, you both have to water and nurture it.
Sam:So I can't flip, I'm worth it.
Sonia:There you go.
Sam:I'm a great friend, I'm an okay friend. Often I'm not gonna say great, that's too high of expectations.
Sonia:I'm fine, good, solid friend Samantha.
Sam:I will always be there. Whether or not I'm happy about having to be there, that's a different question. True.
Sonia:Good, solid friend.
Sam:I very much take on like the East Coast attitude, to where it's just like, yeah, I'll come get you at 3 am, when you don't know how to change your entire because you're an idiot and I will go and I will do it for you, while calling you an idiot to your face and asking you why you do this to me all the time but I'm there for you.
Sam:And I love you very much. You're a goddamn idiot. Like, how many times do I have to tell you to learn how to change a tire? Because you should not have to be calling me right now.
Sonia:No, I'm gonna call the car company or whoever comes in the picture. I'm not talking to you.
Sam:Okay, Do you not know how to change a tire?
Sonia:So I could probably YouTube it and do it.
Sam:What if you're in the woods with no service? Why would I be in the woods? You're on a car road trip, like you're traveling by myself.
Sonia:I don't know, you know, I hate driving.
Sam:You should know how to care for yourself without having to go to YouTube.
Sonia:with these basic things I do, I have a booklet in my car with all the numbers, all the services, all the things.
Sam:What if your battery's dead? What if you don't have any cell service?
Sonia:Again, it's highly unlikely I would be in that place, but it's a what if scenario. I don't like these. You just sit in your car and cry yes.
Sam:I'm teaching you how to change your tire.
Sonia:This is stupid.
Sam:And also, do you know? You have a fully electric car. Now, what if it runs out of charge? What do you do?
Sonia:Just make sure I'm charged up before I leave the house.
Sam:But what if you couldn't like the other day and then you had to stop by the mall and charge yourself for a little while?
Sonia:I stopped by the mall and charged my car.
Sam:What if you're not there? Like what if you go on a road trip and then the one place that you need to charge your car in between charges out in the nowhere is actually not working, I think the thing that you keep thinking is that Sonia's going on a road trip by herself.
Sonia:Mark my words. It could not be me.
Sam:You don't need to worry about this, because if I'm on a road trip, someone else is driving and I'm just eating snacks.
Sonia:Yes, I'm drinking my iced coffee and eating gummy bears.
Sam:I forget how much of a passenger princess you are.
Sonia:Absolutely no, I am not. Never, never, will I ever go on a road trip by myself Never. What's the point? And shout out to everybody that loves to drive in their car by themselves on long trips Could not be me, that is not my life.
Sam:I still like no one kicks stuff to care for yourself in case of emergency Sure.
Sonia:I can learn how to change a tire, but I also have like triple A or whatever it's called.
Sam:Soft, you're soft.
Sonia:I own it. I work way too hard and lived a hard life.
Sam:I used to put a lot of value on leave me alone. I'm independent and I can do it and I figure it out. But I am slowly becoming very tired and lazy and I'm kind of not about that life.
Sonia:Also like I'm paying for these services anyways. It's built into my insurance. I'm going to use it. Save it for later. For what no?
Sam:I used to fight a lot with my spouse and be like I'm driving, why don't you let me drive? And he's like cause, you're crazy. And I was like I'm just offensive because people out here be unhinged this last year I'm like here, just take the keys, I'm just yeah, I don't even bring my keys.
Sonia:I'm like you're driving, right I have my three emotional support beverages.
Sam:I have my like tissue and my snack. We're going to the store down the street and, like I'm just sitting here, I'm just along for the ride, yeah. Cause taking control of everything makes me tired.
Sonia:Right, I don't want it. I will map us out. I will be a co-passenger, not co-pilot. I will have all the things. I will tell you where to turn, I will do all those things, but driving, I don't want it With me, or a poor co-pilot, because you always have your maps on why do you think that?
Sam:Why do you think I always have my maps on? Because you have the little thing that holds your phone to your windshield. It's because I got sick and tired of you going. Oh, you're supposed to turn there Every goddamn time. Oh, that was our turn.
Sonia:So is that the hard conversation you have to have with me?
Sam:No, I told you to your face when it was happening. I was like, if you do not, I'm just going to put my maps up because you're, you don't make any sense and you're untrustworthy. Well, you know, because you're just over here You'll move my water. And then I asked for my water and you're like at what?
Sonia:Because I have to put my coffee somewhere.
Sam:You hold it.
Sonia:I can't the whole time. How am I supposed to map and hold my coffee at this?
Sam:time. You're not. I don't need you to map because you're bad at it. I don't need you in this capacity. Sad and also. You said when you got a new car I wouldn't have to drive all the time. Now I've never once been in your car and you've had it for like a month and a half.
Sonia:I haven't been in my car that much. It's been stuck in my driveway Also. It's just a car who cares? Fair enough, it's a car You've been in one, you've been in them all. It's not that much different than your car. Yeah, but at least I wouldn't have to drive Hold up now. I didn't say I was going to drive.
Sam:You want me to drive your car?
Sonia:My car is getting old.
Sam:She's a little car that could. This is off the topic.
Sonia:We're done here. We need to go. Bye, bye, bye, bye, we need to go. Thank you for joining us. Please don't break it down.
Sam:Bye, bye. Mental Break it Down is produced and edited by Sam and Sonia. Our logo was created by the amazing art of Andoi. If you have any questions, comments or have a topic you want discussed on the podcast, email us at mentalbreakitdownatgmailcom or connect with us on Instagram at mentalbreakitdown. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Instead, this podcast constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis or creates a counselor-client relationship. It is not intended to provide medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are theirs alone. Thanks for listening. Bye, duckx.