Ever contemplated the intricacies of sweat mayo versus Cheeto dust? We kick off this episode with a hilarious take on this 'would you rather' scenario that dives headfirst into this profound (and slightly disgusting) debate. Continuing our journey from the absurd to the intimate, we also scrutinize the delicate dance of therapist-client relationships. From blazing trails through ethical codes to the complexities that arise when clients feel unusually attached to their therapists, we've got it all covered.
But wait! We're also lifting the veil on the often misunderstood world of therapy. As we untangle the difference between pain and suffering, we uncover the empowerment in realizing that while everyone can improve, no one is fundamentally broken. We challenge the incessant pressure to always be happy and advocate for the importance of allowing ourselves the space to be just not okay sometimes.
Finally, we reflect on the beautiful journey of change - the comfort it brings, and the fear it instills. As we navigate these unchartered territories, we also illuminate the importance of a solid routine and the creation of a comfortable space, especially for those who are new to therapy. So, come along as we engage in these important discussions, and remember, it's perfectly okay to bring along a jar of sweat mayo for the ride!"
Instagram @mentalbreakitdown
Email: mentalbreakitdown@gmail.com
Logo Artwork: artofandoy.com
Connect with us of you have questions, want to be on the podcast, or have topics you want discussed!
Ever contemplated the intricacies of sweat mayo versus Cheeto dust? We kick off this episode with a hilarious take on this 'would you rather' scenario that dives headfirst into this profound (and slightly disgusting) debate. Continuing our journey from the absurd to the intimate, we also scrutinize the delicate dance of therapist-client relationships. From blazing trails through ethical codes to the complexities that arise when clients feel unusually attached to their therapists, we've got it all covered.
But wait! We're also lifting the veil on the often misunderstood world of therapy. As we untangle the difference between pain and suffering, we uncover the empowerment in realizing that while everyone can improve, no one is fundamentally broken. We challenge the incessant pressure to always be happy and advocate for the importance of allowing ourselves the space to be just not okay sometimes.
Finally, we reflect on the beautiful journey of change - the comfort it brings, and the fear it instills. As we navigate these unchartered territories, we also illuminate the importance of a solid routine and the creation of a comfortable space, especially for those who are new to therapy. So, come along as we engage in these important discussions, and remember, it's perfectly okay to bring along a jar of sweat mayo for the ride!"
Instagram @mentalbreakitdown
Email: mentalbreakitdown@gmail.com
Logo Artwork: artofandoy.com
Connect with us of you have questions, want to be on the podcast, or have topics you want discussed!
Welcome to Mental Break it Down, a podcast for therapists and the therapy curious where we dig into all things mental health and mental health adjacent. We're so happy you're here. Let's jump in. We're doing it, we're doing it. We're doing it, sonia, hello, hi, hi Want to hold hands.
Sonia:Yes, thank you. You never want to hold my hand. I'm feeling generous, informal. You're feeling generous with your love. I am.
Sam:I have several emotional support beverages.
Sonia:Oh, I just have my one. Oh God, how do you feel.
Sam:Do you feel supported? Normally, no, I feel good.
Sonia:Yes, this is my second two and a half coffee, yeah.
Sam:Well, I mean, we're very low on energy today. I feel like today it's a fun part of the year that we absolutely love, right, it's the dreary, it's the rain, but it takes a little bit of getting used to energy level wise yeah, even though I hate the sun.
Sonia:Yeah, I mean, I don't hate the sun, I love the sunlight, but yes, I am loving the mistiness, the fog of the drive here. I totally didn't respond to your texts yesterday when you said it was moody and dark in the office.
Sam:Because it's late.
Sonia:I know, and I was going to tell you that I'm very excited because we have beautiful offices and I think the moodiness outside adds to the decor.
Sam:So I'm excited to be here in the evenings. It's that dark academia you are looking for, but it needs the dark, yes, like no sunlight, no sunlight. Just alone in your cave.
Sonia:Yes, with all the windows. What am I doing with my hands? My cave has lots of wind.
Sam:Coughing them as offering to you what I'm taking it. Oh, you're being very touchy, awkward.
Sonia:You started it. Okay, what are we getting into today?
Sam:I thought it'd be fun to pose a, would you rather?
Sonia:Oh no.
Sam:Yes, as an opener for today's recording session, okay.
Sonia:Okay, I'm ready.
Sam:This is my favorite would you rather oh, no, okay. Would you rather A have your fingertips be covered? Your fingers be covered in Cheetos dust and you can never take it off. And if you wipe it off, it just replenishes itself or sweat mayonnaise.
Sonia:I am speechless. I think I'm going to have to go with sweat mayonnaise.
Sam:Why? Why would you rather sweat mayonnaise?
Sonia:Okay, you know my thing with cleanliness and I can't imagine having Cheeto dust everywhere in my house and in my office and on my dog and on me At least. With mayonnaise, sweat mayonnaise, I can dab, I can wipe. I know that it replenishes, but I don't know.
Sam:I feel like I'm sweating about it, yeah.
Sonia:Okay, With Cheeto dust on your fingers you can't touch anybody. You can't hold a friend's new baby. You can't hold a kitten or a puppy. You can't do anything. Touch is so important.
Sam:So you would be rather be greasy and smelled of old egg.
Sonia:I think so I think I can work with that better than Cheeto dust, also like hot Cheeto dust, because that burns.
Sam:No, just Cheeto dust.
Sonia:Okay.
Sam:I think that fires for type of Cheeto.
Sonia:What is there like red 40 and Cheetos?
Sam:I'm not sure, I'm sure, everything's out to kill us.
Sonia:Yeah, I don't want that. So sweat mayonnaise it is, I'll be hydrated. No, how? Just always sweating and wet? I don't know. I don't know, I don't like this question.
Sam:This is a really tough question for you. It is I'm just going to go with, because they're both messy and gross and I knew you'd hate it.
Sonia:Yeah, I'm just going to go with the mayonnaise sweat. I'd rather sweat mayonnaise for the rest of my life than have Cheeto dust on my fingers, because I also can't wear gloves all the time, like I know that's a solution, but I also hate the feeling of gloves on my hands.
Sam:I could not. My answer is Cheeto hands. Okay, really, because I would wear like those white butler's gloves all the time, or a version thereof, or black. I'd be very like mysterious. I refuse. I hate the feeling of sweating in general. I add mayo to that. No, I absolutely refuse. I will wear gloves my entire life.
Sonia:You can't win. Why did you pick these two options?
Sam:It's the only one I've ever been asked that stuck with me and that one came up and I don't remember where I got it Maybe my spouse, like 10 years ago and I've never forgotten it. I've asked people that it's been my go to.
Sonia:I want to know what kind of mind thought of these two options.
Sam:You know, now I'm going to go out in the world and try to find the worst. Would you rather and force you to answer them at the top of every episode?
Sonia:Okay, well for today. I'd rather sweat mayonnaise and I would rather have Cheeto fingers Great.
Sam:We're a match made in heaven.
Sonia:How Ew has that always been your answer.
Sam:Yes. It's always been my answer. Even though I've reconsidered, I still go with Cheeto Because it's also dry. You can control it more.
Sonia:Oh no, the texture Underneath your nails, sweat mayonnaise.
Sam:I think I've had better Having just like goops of mayo in your armpit.
Sonia:Well, it could be runny mayonnaise, it doesn't have to be goop. I'm sorry, ma'am, what?
Sam:I mean, are you imagining more of like a Cupid situation? Sure, but even that's thick, what runny mayonnaise are you talking about?
Sonia:Have you ever had vegan mayo? Yes, but it's been thicker. No, but like after a while, if you leave it in the jar long enough, or you, yeah, if you leave it in the jar long enough, it like gets liquidier, and none of this is the right option. This is off the rails.
Sam:Also, you know my love of like best foods mayo.
Sonia:Yeah.
Sam:That's usually what I have.
Sonia:So you'd rather eat it than sweat it.
Sam:I could not imagine the ruining of my condiment. Yeah, like I can't, I couldn't because I couldn't eat it. Then if I sweat it, and then also if I did sweat it, and. I wanted to eat it. I make it. Why don't you?
Sonia:just eat the sweat.
Sam:Like why would I pay more? What a bargain.
Sonia:Oh my God, this is making my eyes water, okay, well, now that that part is done, find us in the world sweating mayonnaise with Cheeto fingers. Speak for yourself, you're sweating mayonnaise. That's why I said I'm going to sweat mayonnaise, you're going to have Cheeto fingers. We're match made in heaven, yeah. Okay, okay, well, that's what you need to believe. You brought the question up, not me. I would never.
Sam:It was a question. It didn't mean you have to like, we have to match somehow in it. You don't want to be together. You're bringing me into your mayonnaise sweat. You don't want to be together forever Well, I mean, what choice do we have at this point? We've come too far. It's too late. It's too far, Even if I want it like. This is essentially like a 25 year marriage with kids. How do I untangle myself from this relationship? You can't. You're in this mayonnaise life forever.
Sonia:Baby, okay, great.
Sam:I do love Cheeto. So, oh man, now I kind of want Cheeto.
Sonia:It's the crispy, the crunchy.
Sam:Do you? I wonder if Cheetos would be good dipped in mayonnaise. Am I just saying things to gross you out now? But there's so many dips that are mayonnaise based, I know, but just like straight up mayo is disturbing. I want to know how we're going to segue into talking about mental health from this.
Sonia:Again, I want to know the person what they were thinking, what emotional state were they in when they came up with these two options? They were here for the chaos.
Sam:They were here for the mayhem. They were here for the people going all the things that I'm doing right now. We couldn't say yes, so let me know if you have a good. Would you rather yeah, because we'll use it. These, oh, I want to see, let's, let's see how Disgusted we can make Sonya. Oh.
Sonia:These questions are never good. It's never like would you rather have a brownie or apple pie? It's never like that. It's always some disgusting vile horrendous.
Sam:It's an exercise and terrible imagination. Yeah, exactly, it's like the Philosoph. I'm always interested the the philosophy behind the choice that you make. Like, what is the reasoning for that choice of these two horrible choices?
Sonia:Yeah, for me it's my need to be clean, which neither one of those options Allows me to feel clean Like and my environment clean and tidy, so I just have to go with the one that has the least amount of impact on my environment. With the Mayo, it's just impacting, like my body. With Cheeto dust, it's impacting not just my body but also my environment and other people I interact with but then it's like hey look, I really have no choice.
Sam:Which are where these super cool gloves? And now I have like a statement piece, but I also like the texture people about it, yeah. I don't know I know, and I hate not having my hands feel clean. Yeah, but I imagine I would get used to it, like when you have vinyl or latex gloves on and you're working, and you're sweat, and you don't realize you're sweating until you take them off.
Sonia:Oh yeah, it's like pandemic, we don't? Realize until you take them right, and that's why, if we, if you asked me this question in 2020, I think I probably would have said Let me just wear gloves, for sure, let me have Cheeto fingers, but now, now I just I don't like the feeling of anything on my hands, and so that just would. It would drive me bananas.
Sam:Well, it's good news. No one's asking you to, so you're safe. You can let this go.
Sonia:I'm letting it go Moving on you're safe. I'm saying you're safe, I'm okay. Are you okay? I'm?
Sam:okay, I'm great. We. I mean, besides from Having a little bit less energy today, I'm feeling Today's fun. We're hanging out, we're hanging out stuff, business.
Sonia:Yeah, and you had client sessions. Today I have client sessions today, which is nice. I have a nice break in the middle, I know yeah, how's it been now that we're comfortably in our space and in our Office and several, a few months?
Sam:Yeah, it's been good. The sessions have been heavy, as of late, but it's all good work. I mean grief. Sometimes it's heavy work. Yeah, I mean. Sometimes everybody's like here's how my co-worker pissed me off or here's the great day I had, but sometimes it gets back into the deepness of the grief.
Sam:Yeah so it's heavy. So that's why I kind of like having this in the middle breaks it up. Yeah, I'm fairly good of, you know, walking out of the session and walking out of my office and kind of just letting it go because it's not mine. But I like to distract myself when I can too, just to transition.
Sonia:I think it's necessary for the longevity of your career and your role. I think it's necessary to break away and I don't think cleanse is the right word. But just yeah, reset, maybe reset is the right word. Reset in between sessions, reset is a very good word, not cleanse. That's a terrible word.
Sam:Yeah, other people's grief is mine to witness and to support and to learn about and hear, but not mine to carry.
Sonia:But sometimes do you find it that it do you find that it still impacts you after a session or in between sessions?
Sam:Yeah, absolutely. I think that when you're in this profession, it's hard to just completely forget. Mm-hmm about what you hear and witness in about your clients. So I will move through the day and be like, well, this person had this hard thing Scheduled and I wonder how they're doing. I wonder how it's going for them, or oh, I hope this person got more rest or had that hard conversation and it went well. I do I Periodically. I think that it's common for clients to pop up and must just wonder how they're doing.
Sonia:Yeah, of course. At the same time, I think sometimes clients wonder and I, being a client and now a therapist, I have wondered does my therapist think about me sometimes in between sessions and now that I'm in on the opposite side? Yes, absolutely, I do think about my clients in between sessions and even sometimes after they've graduated, and we call it graduating. When you have terminated therapy or you've ended therapy for whatever reason, we call it graduating.
Sam:Because it's a lot. I said a lot. Nicer word than terminated.
Sonia:Yes, yeah, we prefer the term graduating. So In between sessions and after a client has graduated, I do find myself thinking about them or what they were dealing with, going through the ways that they're they were changing and the goals that they said. Of course I think it's hard not to and of course I think of some more than others at different times, depending on what they're, what they're working on in therapy. But, yeah, we do think about you. For those of you who are clients that are listening, we I think it's safe to say your therapist probably does think about you.
Sam:Yeah, I think the frequency is different for everybody.
Sam:Yeah every therapist is different and Some people might not want to because they need that energy for being in session. But yeah, I always like I Always wonder, because I've had therapists where I was like you're rad, mm-hmm, and then I get bummed because we can't be friends. Can we be bffs forever? I Would guess I would get bummed. I'm like you're pretty rad and I think that we'd be really good friends. But I mean there's ethical codes around. Yeah, I like For some licenses you can be friends. After three years, five years, you can have a different type of relationship, but definitely not during the time of therapy. It's a bummer. And then it's also strange being therapists to looking for therapy, because these are potential colleagues, yes, and, and the profession is actually pretty small, mm-hmm so.
Sam:I find myself now being very picky and hesitant about Choosing a therapist Uh-huh, I want to, and usually I'm an in-person or I find myself maybe Gravitating towards more virtual therapy for somebody who is farther away from me in the state. Because, then the likeliness of like me meeting in person and having that type of relationship as a colleague is less.
Sonia:Mm-hmm.
Sam:I feel, who knows if that's actually true.
Sonia:I now that you say that, I think about Clients like myself who have gone on to then Join the profession. Join the profession, and then you find yourself in the same circle as your therapist and, yeah, what do we do? Like we're part of Facebook groups, right, just? A therapist, because it's referrals and resources and just networking with each other. What if a current client or a previous client is also in those groups? These are new things that we are coming across in this, and here I am getting excited.
Sam:I'm like, oh, that happens because I like, I like, I like having the hard conversations like that. It's like, ooh, this is weird, uh-huh, let's talk about it.
Sonia:but also I have no idea how I would.
Sam:I don't hear. I think, yeah, I get into it.
Sonia:Uh-huh crossing the bridge. When you get there, uh-huh, mm-hmm.
Sonia:I also sometimes you meet people and, yeah, it's like I, we would be really. You just know that you would click in in life outside of therapy Really well with your client or your therapist, and it's that barrier is tough sometimes because your clients choose you for a reason. Yeah right, and that's the point why we have niches is that Clients that are drawn to the work that you do do will find you, and sometimes that connection is really really deep and great and it does make you wonder could we be friends?
Sam:in life. Yeah, and that leaves me the quite like a question for you. If you're like, if you're feeling like, oh, this person, we would make very good friends, that means that there's commonalities, right. And so then for you, how do you ensure that the boundaries still stay in place? Because I, I, it could get easily blurred, yeah, sticky, if you're not careful.
Sonia:For me, one of the best ways is just to limit the self-disclosure and how much I Reveal about myself, because then I don't want sessions to be about me and I find myself really only Sharing things about me or my life when it is a cultural Peace. So if I have a client that says I know, you know that what I'm talking about, based on just who you are, and I will say, of course I have some experience in that, based on my cultural background and my heritage, and that I Limit it to that, well, I think that you do that with most every client, just like I do too.
Sam:It's like you'll expose certain things about yourself to tell almost tell the client. I get it to a point, yes, and we are taught not to say I get it, but this is my experience. Yes, it might be similar.
Sonia:Yeah, because, like you, you have had very specific Experiences with grief and loss and you do get that part based on your experience. So you know, you know what do I say, I am familiar with that or I have experience with that, you know. But yeah, we're human beings working with other human beings. It's hard not to connect on those levels and for both of us we're relational. So building those bonds and and and relationships are so important that it's hard to. It is hard sometimes when I'm like, oh, you're, you're a great person, you're a great human being and, yes, we work together. So we do have to have those boundaries.
Sam:Yeah, it can be. I would say it can be hard. I thought it would be harder than it is, though.
Sonia:Because I'm like when I'm in the mode.
Sam:I'm in my office, I'm on the computer, I am Sam the therapist, so I find it a little easier. But it is in the moment of like, oh, I could say this thing about myself, but am I saying that to convey understanding to the client and support? Is it for them, or is it just me to connect with the client? Yes, you have to assess that and like, yeah, 0.25 seconds.
Sonia:Yeah, and most of the time yeah, it's not relevant for them, and so you do hold back and you just keep it to yourself. Yeah, because again, sessions are not about you.
Sam:I think to your point, like the cultural piece. This is my experience. I can't understand that cultural piece, the family thing or the history or the background that can be so helpful. I know that many people don't agree with my view of sharing common experiences with mental illness, but I have experienced that when I was struggling with certain things and my therapist was like I've actually gone through this too, I have the same diagnosis. Here's how it shows up for me. Does that sound right? For you, Does that sound familiar? And so it took a lot of pressure off of me to explain my experience, Because I'm like it's like that, that, that, but here's how it's different. So I find that helpful. I'm not going to divulge intimate details, but I personally I'm also a person where I'm just like I have very little shame, so I'm pretty open about stuff, and so it's taken me a good amount of work just to make sure that I have that good boundary and professional. But I will sometimes share bits and pieces to help support understanding, if that makes sense.
Sonia:It does. I think it's also unrealistic, and maybe, again, this is my personal view. Here's the thing I sometimes get nervous about saying things because I don't want other therapists to hear what I'm saying and think that I'm generalizing for our entire profession.
Sam:That's not what I'm saying.
Sonia:However, for me as a client, it was important to know that my therapist had worked with first, second generation immigrant children and immigrant families, and I needed to hear that from her, and I needed to hear her exactly. What do you know, as a person who is very different from me, from Sonia the client, how do you, as a white identifying woman, understand what I'm going through? And so she did have to tell me a little bit about her work and what she?
Sonia:does and that helped to connect. And it is hard for me to expect a client to be vulnerable, open, honest, forthcoming in sessions if I'm not willing to give a little bit about myself to build that trust in relationship.
Sam:Yeah, I mean, you're two humans, exactly.
Sonia:Humoring together.
Sam:And again just my personal experience. It feels cold to not know anything about my therapist.
Sonia:I hated it. That's what I'm saying Personally.
Sam:Yes, I hated not knowing that they understood. Like you are not perfect as well. You've had struggles, but I'm coming in here very vulnerable and then I'm faced with a person who is presenting as a whole, perfect human. And if I did not feel comfortable at all, and again, just me.
Sonia:There's another piece of things that you should know about your therapist. We are not perfect human beings. Oh no, we are working through our own shit.
Sam:And most of us got into this profession because we were working on our own shit. And we're like this feels good, let's do this with other people, uh-huh, yeah. And I mean, if somebody's coming to me for grief and bereavement therapy, the question is always what loss have you experienced, of course, like, have you lost anybody important? Because again, it's that understanding peaks, the cultural thing, everything you viscerally kind of have been through the experience, so you get it.
Sonia:Yeah, it's hard to.
Sam:Or someone.
Sonia:Yeah, you are familiar with that kind of pain and that kind of loss that kind of grieving and mourning. And again it would be hard for me again personally as a client, to speak to someone a therapist if I felt like they have no idea what I'm talking about. They've been trained in this but they actually have no idea because they haven't experienced this thing.
Sam:And that's not to say that people can't still give good treatment.
Sonia:Of course we are trained to you can't? Yes, absolutely.
Sam:Because you can still provide competent grief support, having not lost anybody important to you yet, but you have felt grief in some capacity, because to be human is to have loss, little or small either. It's like a disappointment that you didn't get something that can still be a grieving process. That's not to say that, but that deeper level of understanding. It would be hard for me to come and seek help for anxiety for somebody who has told me I've never felt anxious before in my life.
Sonia:Yeah, I think it's personal preference and I think that's why we have our niches right. That's why, therapists, we develop our niches. We really work to have our specialties and, for me, my specialty is working with people of color, working with people of different cultural backgrounds, because hello, that's who I am. I'm a brown woman, I'm an immigrant in this country, like. There are experiences that I am familiar with and so those are the people I want to work with. That's my passion group, not to say that I wouldn't work with other people.
Sam:Yeah, and there's always beautiful work that can happen with somebody who is the opposite yes, in most ways from you, because they might have a different perspective.
Sonia:And it has, I think, for both of us. We've had clients that are very different from us and that work has been so therapeutically beneficial and what learned and important for our development too.
Sam:It's been really helpful in both ends, I feel. Internship was great for that Because we got to meet so many different people.
Sonia:And, yes, working with teens oh, that's a good reminder of yeah, I didn't always have my shit together and also Kino. I know what you're going through Like maybe you don't say it, but you remember it what it was like to be 10, 15, 17 years old, eight years old.
Sam:Oh my gosh. No, thank you. I mean learning how to deal. I already know, quote unquote, how to person, how to human, and that's difficult enough. Learning it from scratch again, no, thank you. Oh my gosh. Yes, I still don't feel like I actually understand anything.
Sonia:I mean, it's a learning experience every day. Something new pops up every day, doesn't it? Yeah, oh, I have my list.
Sam:She's, she has a list.
Sonia:OK, what do you feel about clients and maybe people in your life that feel like you as a therapist, as someone who's working in the mental health field? You have all the answers.
Sam:No.
Sonia:Say more, just say out. Like, have all the answers in terms of just like emotions and mental health, and that Well, I think sometimes there is an expectation that when someone comes into therapy I'm not saying everyone, but sometimes people have this expectation, this idea, this notion, that this vibe that I'm going to go into therapy and I'm going to be told how to fix my life because this person is trained and educated and they will have all the answers. They can fix me.
Sam:The fixer.
Sonia:What do you say to that oh?
Sam:I feel like most clients come in with that energy, especially if it's like their first time in therapy or it can be their second, their however many times in therapy, but they had a good experience that felt like something helped or was fixed, and so they keep chasing it. I don't fix Thank you Period. You are not broken. You are not broken. Could you potentially feel better with whatever you're dealing with?
Sonia:Sure.
Sam:My job is to. I always say it I feel like a broken record, but I'm a wall to bounce things off of and a mirror to reflect things back. I am here in support of you gaining more understanding about your emotions and your behaviors and how you interact with other people and the world at large. That's it, and I feel like with most clients, I go back to the. Let's go ahead and cultivate understanding for ourselves. Let's look inward and ask ourselves those hard questions we might ask other people Why'd you do that? Mm-hmm, Like you're feeling this certain way. What happened before? Yeah, Like, where is it in your body? What is it telling you? Because it's usually there to tell you something and it's just the understanding piece. But I feel like and I don't know if it's our, like you know, capitalist society the productive, the goal-oriented people feel that there's an end point, Like there is a certain thing that can happen and I will reach that and I will be quote-unquote fixed.
Sonia:I think there's a need to stop the pain and the suffering. Yeah, and maybe that's what you're saying is this need to reach that end goal, to fix, but maybe what it really is is to end the pain and the suffering.
Sam:Yeah, because there's different. Actually, I was just listening to you. I'm gonna butcher this, but Megan Devine, so, she experienced really traumatic grief losing her husband and so she does a lot of training around grief and she wrote a wonderful book called it's Okay You're Not Okay Good book, should you need it and she was talking about and she has handouts about the difference between pain and suffering, and so pain is the thing that's kind of unavoidable, it's the thing that happens to you.
Sam:It's a loss of a loved one, it's a traumatic event. The suffering is where you have more control, where that understanding will help you mitigate, reduce and understand the suffering right, which is a really great way to put it, because there's one thing that's out of your control, but there's still some things that might be more in your control, and I think it is absolutely. There's this feeling of pain and suffering, right, and we want it to go away.
Sonia:And.
Sam:I think for me, and what I was saying is that it's like it's the perspective of it that there's a goal and an end point. But it is what you're talking about it's just reducing the feeling that's happening right now. And that's where that understanding piece, because we can't change something if we don't understand how it works, or start to understand how it works.
Sonia:Right, and you can't change something that has already happened. But where do you go from there? Yeah, it's good work.
Sam:And it's also the same thing keeps happening. I keep ending up in the same place. I keep changing my behaviors, but it keeps ending up in the same place. I keep having these bad experiences and relationships. Well, I mean, the common denominator is you, and that's the only thing you can control. So let's look at the patterns. Even though you might change them a little bit or they might show up differently, the foundation sometimes of those patterns and behaviors is all there's consistently throughout. So it's just understanding the why, yeah. And then it's not to say you're not going to keep feeling that way, you're not going to keep repeating those behaviors. But it helps you get more clarity and knowledge to where you can, kind of in the middle, go oh, this feels familiar. Let's not do that.
Sonia:Yeah, I have. I now have the skills to be aware of this same decision that I keep making. Yeah, and now I have an understanding, or more of an understanding, as to why that. That seems to come up in a lot of the work that I do. Is that and I have had clients to say I seem to be the common denominator? Is it me? And then you have to break down like, okay, what are the decisions that you're making? Yeah, and then going back to I don't have the answer to that. Is it me? When your client asks is it me? I don't have the answer, but let's figure it out together.
Sam:And it might not be you. It might just be the patterns and the choices you're making are bringing people and elements into your life that are the same.
Sonia:Based on what you know, based on what you've been taught, based on what you have experienced, and maybe you had great outcomes with those choices, and so you keep repeating that. But yeah, we don't have the answers. But I think we're really good about this and I think we've based our practice on this is collaboratively. We're going to figure it out as much as we can.
Sam:Yeah, it's the. I always imagine you know the Wizard of Oz pulling the curtain back. It's like I'm not magic. Yeah, the DSM is not the end all be all. You know the manual that tells us about different mental illnesses. Also, it's severely flawed. Another episode yeah, but it's. I will bring that book out and we'll talk about it, like how people are feeling. We will do treatment plans together, because nothing that I have in your chart is secret, it's yours and so we can do notes together, we can make a plan together. We can do all of this together. If there's something that I think would not be clinically helpful for you, we're going to talk about that. But I don't know about you. But sometimes I feel like if you go to the doctor and they just kind of shove you around and tell you what's good for you and don't really talk to you and ask questions, yes, it's dismissive.
Sam:Yes, and I think, especially as women and women of color going to a medical, that example is very poignant. Yes, is that the right word? It is Because many of us have had negative experiences, but I don't want to take that lack of control that people can feel out in the world and bring it into this space because it is theirs, even though it's my office, whatever. Yeah, I want to, from the very beginning, just break down that power dynamic. I've just read more books. I've just gone to school.
Sonia:Yeah, and maybe just different books, yeah yeah, and I have clients that read all the time, read every single day, and you've probably read more than me. I've just read different things and I know about different things. But then you also have clients that are very enthusiastic about everything related to therapy, and maybe they do know more than you.
Sam:I always get like, okay, what are you trying to control here? That you can't control by all this knowledge gathering.
Sonia:You know, and I think it relates back to, not relates back to, it reminds me of my spouse, who reads a lot. And so I actually picked up that skill from him that when you go to the doctor, right we have, they have all these degrees and they've been in school forever, like they know more than me.
Sam:The authority.
Sonia:The authority on my body and what's happening in my body, because they know about medicine, I don't, and my spouse was the one that was like no, I live in my body every day. I feel what I feel every day, my doctor has no clue. They can gather data and, based on data, they can make recommendations.
Sam:But really in comparison to a giant collective that might not represent you.
Sonia:Right, but I know my body, I have the answers to what's going on in my body and I think I approach therapy the same way, where I will tell clients you know what's happening in your heart and in your mind and in your body. Let's talk about it together. And I have also said in session I actually don't have the answer to that, I don't know. I'm actually wrong a lot.
Sam:So this is when I'm picking up. How does that feel for you? Am I getting it right? Am I understanding? Yeah, it's really important. It is because we don't know. I don't wanna be like here's a CBT technique. Go home and be mindful and be why.
Sonia:Yeah.
Sam:Sure, some people that works great for Some people are not. That's not their thing and so it's a really individual and can't blink at diagnosed.
Sonia:No, and I don't think we're saying that your therapist doesn't know anything. I'm talking about the very specific questions that come up sometimes. Sometimes I'll have clients ask about research or literature and I just haven't read that and maybe I just don't know. So I will say I don't know, let's find out together or I will do the research outside of session.
Sam:Yeah, it's not saying that. Don't listen to your therapist, they don't know anything. Yeah, no, but we need to take some time to get to know you from your perspective so that we can best support you Because we don't know about you Like.
Sam:You're the expert on yourself. You know what feels right and what doesn't, and when you feel understood and you don't. And it's that trial and error and getting to know each other that's the important part in doing it together. Yeah, I'm not the boss here. I don't know what you're doing. Like I don't know everything about you. You don't come with a book that I can read before we get together.
Sonia:Wouldn't life be so easy if everybody came with a manual. But how?
Sam:uninteresting, that's true. How boring. Yeah, let's find out together.
Sonia:What genre of book would you be If your life was a book? What would it be?
Sam:A dark comedy, A dark comedy Fitting, with some existential philosophy popped in there. What?
Sonia:about you. I think it would also be a dark comedy. I want it to be a thriller, but I don't think I'm that exciting.
Sam:I feel like, depending on your view of life in the world, most people are dark comedies. Yeah, that is life.
Sonia:Oh yeah, do you remember when I was questioning if I had dark humor or not, you laughed in my face.
Sam:Because it was a stupid question. You have deep gallows humor. That I appreciate, because I also do.
Sonia:I didn't know that about myself until very recently Because, again, death is a taboo topic in my community and in my culture we don't joke about it. But then I think I joke about it quite a bit and maybe it's my coping mechanism. But yeah, yeah, so dark humor wanting to be a thriller, but you're not that interesting.
Sam:But I'm not that interesting. I'm fine with that. Yeah, life is enough as it is. I love some just boring routine monotony.
Sonia:I love predictability. Sometimes I do the illusion, the illusion.
Sam:I love a good illusion of control. Lie to me world the routine.
Sonia:Yeah, I like routine, not mundane but routine. I do appreciate some routine in my life.
Sam:Well, it's very helpful to feel like you can go ahead and unmoor your boat and you can just skadooch out and to sea for a little while. It gets a crazy and scary. You have a place to come back to. There you go, yeah, yeah. See you have to have somewhere to moor your boat. Your therapist doesn't have it all figured out. Yes, I do Shut up.
Sonia:I know everything, ok, so your little rainbow list. I know I have my little list of things that I was curious about with my therapist. Did you ever wonder? Or do you think clients wonder like, does my therapist like me? Oh, do they enjoy sessions with me?
Sam:I think I spent like the first six months of my therapy experience trying to win therapy OK.
Sonia:And I even asked my therapist.
Sam:I'm like am I winning at therapy, yet Do.
Sonia:I get an A. What does winning therapy look like? What does that mean, Sam?
Sam:For me, it meant doing what I'm supposed to be doing.
Sonia:Like homework.
Sam:Not just homework, but like continual progress, or like I had to have a good insight, like I had to be doing this right, and this was when I was just thinking about getting into school, and it also for me, being funny is very important.
Sonia:But you are funny, you're a funny girl.
Sam:Thank you. I do have an eight comedic timing and I appreciate that. But it was like and he was fairly stoic most of the time, but as time went on I can get him to laugh, and because that's how I deal with hard things in my life, right, Like someone close to me dies, there's a joke in there somewhere Because it helps me feel better, just to remind myself I'm still alive and I can still feel things that are nice. And so it was jokes. So if I can get him to laugh, I was like. I look at him. I'm like am I winning? Did I Also? I was not. Maybe I was a little bit too. I don't know if I was a good or bad client, I have no idea, because I would lose track of the time and so he would have to be like so we're at time. And because it was funny, I would usually just go OK, bye, and I'd grab my stuff and I'd just leave. I mean, you do that?
Sonia:just in real life, where, when you're ready to go, you're like I'm out Peace Because I don't want to.
Sam:I was like OK, bye, and I'd just like a peace sign and I'd slam the door and just like out Mid sentence. Yeah, Because he would. I mean, I had a lot of stuff to cover and I would just get on a roll. And then he'd be like so we're getting close to time. I was like all right bye and I just grabbed my keys and leave. For better or for worse, I was at absolute chaos, I think.
Sam:That's the best way to put it, but I don't know. Being the funniest, being the most insightful, felt like I was winning therapy. But then it's like OK, I'm over this. Now Enjoy me crying every session. Hey, that's therapeutic work. Oh, I needed it, needed it bad.
Sonia:I felt like I had to also have a lot of insight in sessions, like everything I had to have. Pull out the deep meaning behind it every session, make a good connection, you know, thread it all together, come up with my own theme. Exactly and I felt the pressure of that, especially in the beginning, and I think that's normal, maybe to want to do therapy well or do a good job in therapy, because then it means that you're getting better.
Sam:I don't know, yeah, and who is it for? For your therapist, for yourself?
Sonia:Exactly what?
Sam:is actually doing a good job in therapy. Mean yes.
Sonia:And you just do therapy the way that it works for you. There's no good, there's no bad. I mean, please show up on time. That's literally how it is Like that's just respecting each other's time and communicate when you need to reschedule, like those are just basics, right, but winning at therapy, getting a good grade in therapy, doesn't exist.
Sam:The win in therapy is do you feel like this is working for you? Do you feel like it's beneficial for you?
Sonia:Great.
Sam:You're winning therapy. Yeah, if you need to buy gold stars and put those up on your calendar, do it.
Sonia:Love it. I'm not going to do it for you, but when you go home I kind of want to.
Sam:You can. Would you like some gold star service, because I can just put in a notebook? I had a kiddo who when they got done with therapy, they would get a marvel sticker for their notepad. That's cute. It was cute, but I mean, of course Everybody needs something different. I have clients who want to be remain like a very professional and I have clients who walk and kick off their shoes and like grab a blanket. So it varies.
Sonia:Absolutely, and that's what I'm saying. You do therapy the way that it works for you, and there's no, at least in my office, there's no right or wrong way. You want to bring your iced coffee, let's do it. You want to like lay down while we talk?
Sam:Sure, there's no right way, there's no wrong way.
Sonia:Just show up, we can do the work if you don't show up.
Sam:Yeah, and I think that that maybe I don't know if this is going to sound voiceless or whatever the word might be I enjoy getting clients who've never been to therapy before, because I like to think that we've worked hard to provide a comfortable and collaborative space, and so it kind of sets the tone for how therapy could be, because I also get clients. It's like oh, I've been to therapy with four different therapists.
Sam:It was like a little bit too distant, a little bit too blank slate, you know, a little bit too cold or however, whatever didn't work for them and there was not flexibility offered to them, and so I like seeing both sides but I like, I liked somebody brand new to therapy, because I can do that for them and for me just personally it feels good to offer that.
Sonia:Yeah, and, like I say, it's always an honor to be your therapist and I feel that way with all of my clients. It's always an honor, I know.
Sam:I'm like this is such weird, it's such weird work and it's so joyous in that way. It's like you're going to come here and trust me. I make sure I earn that trust yeah.
Sonia:Speaking of earning someone's story, I think this is just more revealing about me. But I am terrible with names. Unless I meet you many times and we interact many times, then it sticks. But you know you have clients and they're sharing their entire story with you and there are people in their lives. Do you find it sometimes hard to keep track of names and who everybody is?
Sam:Especially because I mean, naturally, I have mashed potato brains, right? My ADHD does not allow me to retain important things. I remember vibes, yes, so when it comes, I think that most of my headspace goes to client work, because I will remember your story.
Sonia:But will you remember third cousin on mom's side's name?
Sam:I am working on because I need a system. My brain needs systems, so I will forget if I don't say it. If you use someone's name and if I don't have an opportunity to then say it back to you reflecting something, it's harder for me to retain it.
Sam:So, I will try to actively do that, because then it sticks. Sometimes I will even just write a little note like, just like with initials. So I try to remember names because I don't want to put any names anywhere. But yeah, it's really hard because it's a lot of people with their constellation of community around them that you want to also remember Because that story is really important. But then when you have many constellations, you lose track of the stars.
Sonia:Sometimes, if you don't have a system to track them our memories may not be perfect not for all of us, but I think I like what you say the energy for retention and memory goes in certain places. I think for some of us it goes to the names, for some of us it goes to the vibes and for other people it might go elsewhere. But yeah, we don't have perfect memories. I will forget your brother's name but I will ask. But I will ask and know that it Correct me if I'm wrong.
Sonia:Correct me if I'm wrong and know that it is not intentional, but it's just not, because I don't care. Yeah, it's just, you have a story and a constellation and all of it is important, and that's why it's important to ask and just make sure that we're getting it right from time to time.
Sam:Yeah, everybody has a different. I feel every client comes in with a very that's why. I also love in person so much. Every client comes in with a different energy and that vibe will help me connect to the story I have started my head that you've shared with me so far, and so it's almost like clicking on a folder with different names for me.
Sam:I'm very visual, if this makes any sense, so I know that it's a color code, your vibe is color coded, and it has a feeling for me, and so I can recall that in connection. That's why it's important for me to use names to connect things back and summarize for you to make sure I'm understanding where you're trying to convey to me and then be so I can really solidify that in my brain space Because there's only so much in there, so I have to be really intentional about it.
Sonia:You see an intentional yeah, yeah, I love this work for that reason alone. Is that just being a human being on this planet at this time. There's so much there, there's so much richness.
Sam:Oh, you mean our slow mo apocalypse? No, oh, you were going more positive.
Sonia:My bad, go ahead Just that this work, in this time it it's so much and it's so beautiful and painful and all of those things and it's just beautiful to witness and sometimes it's hard, it's hard. It impacts me sometimes like I feel it's palpable, sometimes right in session, when, when your client is going through something really difficult or they're really sad about something, or when they're really excited about something Can really fill a room yeah, can really fill a room, and those moments stay with me a little bit longer.
Sam:Well, I was. I know we're getting close to time, but I was rereading the subtle art of not giving a fuck and you, it's on your list, but you haven't read it and I read it when it came out. Like what? Six years ago or something like that 2016 you said oh shit. Seven years ago and, like I said, my brains are made of mashed potatoes and so I remember the general vibe, but I'm rereading it to try to solidify information and they have a highlighted.
Sam:It's on page nine, so I have not gone very far, but I want to read this passage and let me know your thoughts. I'm ready. Okay, the desire for more positive experience is itself a negative experience and, paradoxically, the acceptance of one's negative experience is itself a positive experience. And the next sentence is this is a total mind fuck.
Sonia:I was going to say it's. It feels like a contradiction, but at least for the first part, what I took away from that is there's a lot of pressure to be happy and be perfect and smile and present a certain way in the world like we're all supposed to be happy human beings and have a smile on our face and everything should be okay at all times, and there's so much pressure in that and as a society, I think if we just gave ourselves and each other a little bit more space to just not be okay all the time, I think that might make things a little bit. I don't want to say easier, but we might be able to relate to each other a little bit better. Yeah, and the second part I already forgot what you said oh accepting
Sam:that accepting the negative experiences in itself is a positive experience.
Sonia:Oh yeah, I think that the way I take that is not denying what has happened, but just acknowledging that these things have happened in your life, or this is how you are. Where do you go from there? I think it's the act of acknowledging and giving it a place, seeing it and know that it exists, yeah, instead of just ignoring it or try to spin it. Or try to spin it, yeah, for me it ties back into that pain versus suffering conversation because I.
Sam:It's suffering in a positive experience or suffering in a negative experience. You're doing the good things you're striving for more and more and more, and in that you put pressure and you suffer to try to get more and more and more and to be happier.
Sam:And when you accept even a negative experience, that it happened, and then how do we adjust and move forward? Yeah, that is a service to yourself and that lessons and does not extend suffering. So it's always like a neutral, because to me kind of life is living in the neutral. It can't always be really great, that's a lot of pressure. It can't always be really bad, that's a lot of needless suffering. If you have control over that Everything is temporary.
Sonia:The good, the bad, the ugly, the painful, all of it is temporary. You can't be happy all the time. You're not going to be excited all the time, but you probably won't be incredibly sad all the time. We're human beings. Our moods change, our hormones change, our chemically, our bodies change and we're always in flux.
Sam:Yeah, and not to get too existential or dark, go there. Whenever I'm going through that and sometimes just like walking down the street, I'm like literally everything is temporary. These one day these buildings will not be here. One day, this very quote unquote permanent road will crumble. The situation will be changing. You will not be here, your loved ones will not be here. This world will look different if it's still here. Like all of the literally everything you look at changes and is in flux at any given moment. It's like a deeper look at this too shall pass, but it is. It's comforting in a very weird way to know that there's always hope and opportunity for something different.
Sonia:Yeah, the one thing you can count on is change. If anything is permanent, it's change.
Sam:That doesn't make sense, sonia, doesn't it?
Sonia:though? What do they say? What? The two things that are guaranteed are taxes and death. Death and taxes. Yeah, death and taxes, but also change. Things are always going to change and it can be scary, for sure. I don't love change, but change can also be great and renewal.
Sam:I actually, you know, I really appreciate change, because even these tables that we have in this room, they're made from an artist but with old railroad ties and they weigh a ton.
Sonia:Yeah, why did you bring those in?
Sam:How did you buy these? You won't be able to move them when you're 80. First of all, why am I moving it? But I also know I rearrange everything.
Sonia:I know you.
Sam:And B. I'm like I think I might have like two, three things that I've had with me my adult life. Everything else has changed and been replaced and has been different.
Sonia:Yeah.
Sam:And I kind of like that, of course, absolutely yeah, I'm just like what do you mean I'll have this with I'm 80? Like what? That makes no sense.
Sonia:It's just the way I buy furniture. I want to make sure I can move it when I'm 80. But I also know I won't have it until I'm 80.
Sam:Also hire somebody, if you can, of course, ew.
Sonia:But I also like to reshuffle my house. You know that. So I want to be able to move my cow to when I'm 80.
Sam:What do you mean? We're anxious, we're not Changes our room twice a month?
Sonia:How many times do we change this office?
Sam:Well, we're getting the setup there. We go Right, we have it. It's fine, everything is fine, sonia.
Sonia:Everything is fine. And on that note, thanks for listening. Thanks for listening. I'm Sonia, I'm Sam and this is Mental. Break it Down Bye.
Sam:Mental Break it Down is produced and edited by Sam and Sonia. Our logo was created by the amazing art of Andoi. If you have any questions, comments or have a topic you want discussed on the podcast, email us at mentalbreakitdownatgmailcom or connect with us on Instagram at mentalbreakitdown. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Nothing said in this podcast constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis or creates a council client relationship. It is not intended to provide medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are theirs alone. Thanks for listening. Bye.