Ever pondered how the great outdoors can serve as a therapy space? Tune in as we explore this captivating concept with our guest, Andre St. Hilaire, a licensed mental health counselor and expert in outdoor therapy. Andre paints a vivid picture of how outdoor therapy serves as a form of play therapy for adults, allowing clients to find stillness and connect with their nervous systems. However, he underlines that it is not a one-size-fits-all solution and stresses the importance of safety, comfort, and informed consent before embarking on this therapeutic journey.
The episode further delves into the unique impediments men face when seeking therapy. We discuss societal pressures men face in terms of expressing their emotions and how outdoor therapy can offer a more comfortable, natural platform for them. Andre also introduces us to the concept of 'therapy by proxy' and its potential to transform how men relate to others. Finally, we take a deeper look at outdoor therapy, the associated benefits and apprehensions, and Andre's personal experiences and advice for those considering it. Don't miss out on this enlightening expedition into the therapeutic wild!
Andre St. Hilaire, LMHCA
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/open.road.wellness/
Wellness: https://www.openroad-wellness.com/
Instagram @mentalbreakitdown
Email: mentalbreakitdown@gmail.com
Logo Artwork: artofandoy.com
Connect with us of you have questions, want to be on the podcast, or have topics you want discussed!
Ever pondered how the great outdoors can serve as a therapy space? Tune in as we explore this captivating concept with our guest, Andre St. Hilaire, a licensed mental health counselor and expert in outdoor therapy. Andre paints a vivid picture of how outdoor therapy serves as a form of play therapy for adults, allowing clients to find stillness and connect with their nervous systems. However, he underlines that it is not a one-size-fits-all solution and stresses the importance of safety, comfort, and informed consent before embarking on this therapeutic journey.
The episode further delves into the unique impediments men face when seeking therapy. We discuss societal pressures men face in terms of expressing their emotions and how outdoor therapy can offer a more comfortable, natural platform for them. Andre also introduces us to the concept of 'therapy by proxy' and its potential to transform how men relate to others. Finally, we take a deeper look at outdoor therapy, the associated benefits and apprehensions, and Andre's personal experiences and advice for those considering it. Don't miss out on this enlightening expedition into the therapeutic wild!
Andre St. Hilaire, LMHCA
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/open.road.wellness/
Wellness: https://www.openroad-wellness.com/
Instagram @mentalbreakitdown
Email: mentalbreakitdown@gmail.com
Logo Artwork: artofandoy.com
Connect with us of you have questions, want to be on the podcast, or have topics you want discussed!
Welcome to Mental Break it Down, a podcast for therapists and the therapy curious, where we dig into all things mental health and mental health adjacent. We're so happy you're here, let's jump in. Well, welcome to Mental Break it Down. I'm Sam. I'm Sonia.
Sonia:And I'm Andre. Welcome, Andre. Thanks for joining us today.
Andre:Yeah, thanks for having me back.
Sonia:Introduce yourself and your title. Sure, all the letters Give the credits.
Andre:Yeah, give the credits. Okay, so I am Andre St Hilaire, that's my name and in terms of my creds I'm a licensed mental health counselor associate. So I'm working towards full private practice, full licensure as a therapist. And what else am I? I'm an outdoor therapist.
Sonia:Outdoor therapist in the Pacific Northwest.
Sam:Perfection, perfection, and that's what we're here to talk about today. What is outdoor therapy and who you work with?
Andre:Yeah. So what is outdoor therapy? I think, as we've talked about, outdoor therapy is what you, whatever nature, brings to you in the session. Right, in outdoor therapy, anything can happen. I think we were talking earlier, before we started the recording.
Andre:Outdoor therapy is kind of play therapy for adults. That's kind of how I would think about it, describe it. There's an aspect of fun, there's an aspect of adventure, there's an aspect of risk, but I think it's also working with clients in a way that they're in situations where we will adapt, we will see, we will notice change. And I think there's also a misconception about outdoor therapy. As we're going to go rock climbing, we're going to go have this hearty adventure, and it's not that Sometimes the work is practicing, being still practicing, noticing good things.
Andre:A lot of times people who are in therapy are in environments where their life is just not still works, going a hundred miles an hour, their relationships, whether they have children maybe that's an aspect their friendships. Life is moving too fast and I think outdoor therapy is an opportunity to show a client that there are aspects of the world where it's not all moving so fast. Right, we can be still, we can be in the moment. Oftentimes, I think the clients that we see being in the moment is really hard, because sometimes the moment is painful or sometimes the moment is overwhelming or it's going really fast and outdoor therapy is an opportunity to show a client that there's stillness still in the world, stillness, still.
Andre:Outdoor therapy is an opportunity to take a client and have them be in tune with the world around them, have them be in tune with their nervous system, have them show up for themselves in a place that they might always have the venue to be in.
Sonia:How would you say, how would someone know that outdoor therapy is right for them?
Andre:I think that that's such a good question. It is not for everyone. Maybe if you're someone that's working on grief, like with you, Sam, I think their outdoor therapy may be right later on in their work, but initially more privacy might be needed. Maybe if it's someone working with something that's very immediate, like an immediate trauma. I think there are benefits in nature, but in order to access those benefits, safety needs to be established first.
Andre:I don't jump into working with a client outdoors. Maybe I work with them online. Let's get to know what your baseline of safety is. Let's get to know each other. Let's establish our comfort. But I think the core question of is this right for you? Are you somebody that likes, do you process better with movement? I think a lot of people that I'm working with they process better by doing, they process better by action, they process better by having something to work with as opposed to sitting. Still, Maybe they're somebody that it just makes the work of therapy less intimidating. But I think the question of is it right for you? It's not so much a question of do you like nature, Do you like being outside? Some people maybe are more indoorsy and the challenge is good for them, I think knowing if it's right for you is really knowing what it is you're working on, and do you have the safety, within talking about that topic, to take it to a venue with less control?
Sam:Is it aligned with your goals?
Andre:Will it help you get there? Can you? Is what you're working on if it's really activating for you. You may need more privacy. You may need more confidentiality. You may need more security to you might cry you might express emotions that are uncomfortable to have outside. I think outdoor therapy might be for someone who they're able to take that risk and feel safe doing it.
Sam:It's not to say that it's not acceptable for you to start crying on a paddle board.
Andre:Yes, thank you absolutely.
Sam:Yeah, those things are okay.
Andre:Yeah, and you can cry outside, the trees don't mind, the trees don't mind. But I think that there's also an aspect of do you feel safe doing that? First so I think establishing that groundwork of safety with the client and how they feel, bringing more risk, bringing more variables into a session.
Sam:Two part. Question One, because when we imagine therapy it's one-on-one in a room. That's what we usually imagine right, and so there's a different informed consent, a different conversation into going into outdoor therapy and also like what does outdoor therapy entail?
Andre:Right, I think there's a pre-conversation with the client of like are you ready to expect the unexpected, Because I don't always know what's gonna happen in the session right, we have no control here. Right, somebody could. If we are outdoors, the outdoors is the outdoors, there's no doors to it. Somebody, because it's the outdoors, Somebody could somebody? Could right, I did it. Somebody could walk by our session. It could be someone you know. Yeah.
Sam:Right, that's how do you handle introducing me if somebody comes by? That you know.
Andre:Right. Right, how do we do that? So there's a lot of pre-conversation, there's a lot of unknowns, and so I think which I think has value in life we have to welcome the unknowns, find regulations so that we can address the unknowns. So the work about door therapy is really a practice tool for what can happen in real life. The variables are unknown in life. Right, If someone's at work, their boss could do anything. If someone's in a relationship, their partner could say or do anything. So I think it's teaching people to find the ability and the capacity to feel security, to notice their safety, to be in the present. You know, and, I think, to not avoid you can't avoid what's gonna happen to us when we're outside. And I think I forgot the second part of your question.
Sam:That's okay. They were unrelated and I shouldn't have said them at the same time.
Andre:Yeah, that's okay.
Sam:No, it's more of like what is outdoor therapy. What does that mean? What are you doing?
Andre:Sure, okay, sure, thank you. I think for me there's different layers of it. So some people use the term eco-therapy and that might be more about getting in touch with nature, right, for maybe somebody that's so stressed out or so overwhelmed that they've just lost the sense of the world around them, they've lost the sense of safety around them, they've lost the sense of beauty around them, right. So for some people it's kind of getting back in touch with the world, right. Getting back in touch with hey, I've got this nine to five job, I'm coming home, I'm doing a second shift. There's also this whole other world out here that's calm.
Andre:So there's an aspect of that With eco-therapy. It might touch more on the idea of we're seeing a lot of things happen in the environment that aren't good. There's fires, there's extreme heat happening. Sometimes that can feel helpless, right. So getting in touch with nature kind of restores a person's empowerment, that it's not just watching what's happening in nature from a sense of hopelessness, that I can reconnect with the earth, right. There's also nature therapy, which is, I think, more about the idea of. It might sound like a walk-in talk You've probably heard.
Sam:Which is what we offer, and you've done that right. Nature-based therapy it's literally walking and talking, or sitting in nature. It is a step down. I think, in activity from what you do.
Andre:Yeah, and I think that that is something that I think is highly valuable. It's, you know, let's move, let's get outside, let's get some fresh air right. There's also within nature, therapy being present, where maybe we are introducing within the session some mindfulness. So I'll give an example I worked with a client and we were by the water and we sat on paddle boards. We did not go paddle boarding, but we breathed with the waves, kind of bringing that sense of mind, body, nervous system, awareness into the slowing down.
Sam:That sounds really nice. I was just like oh my gosh, I need that Right, it's kind of doing a body scan and getting in touch with the pace that's around you, right? It's connecting with the systems that we're naturally should be connecting with.
Andre:Exactly.
Sam:But we're so far from.
Andre:We're so far from.
Sam:And also with the pandemic being inside.
Andre:so much yes yeah, and I think most jobs put people in front of computers. Most jobs put people in front of constant responding, responding, responding in nature. The idea is just being right Adapting to what comes.
Sonia:How lovely. I think you and I talked about this, but it's making therapy accessible in a different way and, as you both have said, therapy sometimes is feels like it's a box. Right, you go into an office, a box, and you sit on chairs and you just talk, and for people that are maybe of diverse cultures and heritage, that doesn't work for them, that's not aligned with their identities or their cultures. And maybe being outdoors is reconnecting with mother nature and the trees and the ground and water, and I think that's so beautiful that you offer that and that it's available now.
Sam:Oh, I can imagine it also being very helpful for the neurodiverse.
Andre:I think what? Yes, and I think the reason why, for both culture and for neurodiversity, and just for you know wherever someone's out in their life, it gives them choice. Right, like it's not you're coming to, and I think it gives them choice. And I think it also puts me as a therapist and them as a client. We're meeting in a place that I don't own. We're meeting in a place that I'm not an expert on, right, and we're experiencing it together. So I think it brings us, I think, to a shared experience which I think deepens the work. It deepens the trust.
Sonia:Relation of just being a therapist and a client. It's more, it's relational right Connecting to this nature. This I'm at a loss for words right now, but really it's you and your client connecting together, but also the environment around you which is so powerful.
Sam:Yeah, and we can make our offices as welcoming and warm, but it's still our space, that our clients are coming into.
Andre:And I think that there's this aspect of I'm not holding the wheel in the session right and neither are they. We're kind of. I think outdoor therapy at its heart is play therapy, it's experiential therapy and it's being in the moment with the client. Whatever comes up for them is what comes up for them and it's we can't really curate it because in the same way, you can't curate life.
Sam:Yeah, the only thing that is really the parameter for what you do is that it's for the benefit of the client. Everything else is up to the elements and it's up in the air.
Andre:Yeah, it's up in the air. There's also another aspect of outdoor therapy which is, I think, an umbrella term. That's adventure therapy. That might be something that I'd look to get into more in the future, where it might be introducing hey, let's introduce cycling, let's introduce going deeper into the water, let's introduce some sort of outdoor activity as a catalyst, pushing ourselves past our comfort zone.
Andre:Right, that might be a little more something I'd like to do in the future, maybe in a retreat or that type of setting, but I think at its heart, whatever you call it, whether it's eco, therapy, nature, therapy outdoor therapy, adventure therapy. At its heart it is, and especially with adults, it's teaching them how to be open to the moment, being present, open to play right. This could be messy, this could be awkward, this could be fun this could be fun and it could be uncomfortable.
Andre:And I think the thing about nature therapy is full of the gift of metaphor. It's adaptation, it's acceptance, it's change and it's also recognizing the glimmers in life, that there is beauty, there is hope.
Sonia:I'm curious about all of this. Sounds amazing, but do I have to own a paddle board in order to like what is expected of?
Sam:the client what is expected of?
Sonia:the client, and how accessible is this for just your normal human?
Sam:being yeah. Additional costs concerns.
Andre:Yeah, that's such a great question. You know, I did take one client and we sat on paddle boards. That is not something I'm going to do every time. Right, a lot of it is just being together in the outdoors. It does it for me. We can adjust what we're doing according to what feels right for the session and what feels right in getting to know the client.
Andre:There's no expense to them other than you know getting there right, which would be the same as going to the office Wearing clothes that are comfortable. You know you might get dirty, you might get rained on, so wearing things that you know are adaptable, bringing a snack, you know, just the most basic things. But in terms of I would never ask a client you need to bring this equipment you need, and I honestly really don't see myself using a bunch of equipment or doing a bunch of intense things. It's more about taking the work and the play of therapy and kind of unleashing the rules around it, taking it to a different setting.
Sam:So who, what population do you primarily work with?
Andre:So you know, and it's been a surprise for me and such a fun surprise but it's mostly been men, Mostly been men, mostly been men, you know, I would say as young as early 20s up into 50s.
Andre:That's been kind of, and I don't know if it's just you know that appeals to them or it's making it more accessible to them, or maybe just the aspect that I am a man, but mostly it's been men and that's been really, really rewarding and fun. So I think, make therapy and I think sometimes the barriers that are there for men, right, there's men experience stigma around therapy, men experience. You know, I don't think there's a long tradition of men going to therapy. So I think if going outside, which is something that I think generally appeals to a lot of guys, if we can throw that out there as a way to, you know, make it more comfortable, make it more natural, make it just one step more relaxed, and I think most guys by nature are people that process through activity. Right, you talk to your buddies when you're doing something. It might be hard to talk to your buddy when you're looking at them.
Sonia:Yeah.
Andre:Right. So it takes away that kind of that initial self-consciousness that I think might exist in if I was on account.
Sam:Yeah, I'm curious if you can speak to and perhaps you've also felt it like the cultural messaging towards men about emotions and therapy and also what you've noticed has been benefiting men in therapy.
Andre:Sure, yeah, I think a lot of times, and I don't know that this is specific to men. So, you know, I think that this is just a true experience for everybody. I've noticed it from the men I work with, and men in particular. There's this idea that you have to show up strong and there's this idea that if I can manage my emotions, that's my way of being protective and supportive for you. And keeping keeping, just kind of keeping my head down, keeping it going, because if I address the emotions that are uncomfortable, if I address the emotions that are pain you know if I show vulnerability everything that I'm trying to hold together, I might not be able to hold.
Sam:If you take one brick out, the whole wall with all.
Andre:Yeah, like a Jenga, right. I almost picture that.
Sam:So like it's risky to.
Andre:There is risk for, yes, there's risk. So I think that that would be kind of. The core theme is that, you know, by looking at the things that are going on in my life, you know which I think a lot of men aren't given the venue to do.
Sonia:At least not in this society that we live in, not in this society we live in.
Andre:I don't think men are doing it together necessarily and I think that you know there's that notion of the strong, silent type, right, and that's real.
Sonia:That is very real.
Andre:So I think just the idea of for men, I think outdoor therapy might make the. Take the concept of oh, we got to talk about it, which is painful too. Let's create it into an action. We're doing something about it. Something I found helpful and I think it's kind of one of my core lenses is act therapy.
Sam:Huge fanatic. He loves me, he loves me.
Andre:It's really great for grief too, yeah yeah, and I think that men as a population, and not even just outdoors, even in online sessions, I think they really respond to the idea of it's not about changing what you're thinking. It's not about changing your beliefs. It's not about changing the emotion. Hey, it's there. What's your value? Where are we working towards? Right? So I think it's got that?
Sam:What can it do for you?
Andre:It's concrete, right, it's practical, and I think that that has been the most, my most common modality that I'm leaning on as a therapist with men.
Sam:And what have you seen the benefits working with men so far?
Andre:Yeah, I think the benefit that I'm seeing Is how little work we have to do to access what's underneath. Men have incredible emotional intelligence that I don't believe is always celebrated, so I think the benefit is. For me it almost feels like a scratch ticket we're not doing, sometimes within a session, of just breaking the wall and being like hey, we're here, we're talking about it.
Andre:Maybe, a man that I would have perceived at the beginning of the session as being closed off, in this strong, silent type. Actually, he has incredible insight. He knows exactly his truth. It's taking it deeper to be able to express it.
Sonia:Also creating the space for him to express it.
Sam:Yeah, do you find it that it's easier for them to open up to you because then it's not seen as like a burden to their friends and family, who they're trying to protect?
Andre:I think you hit it. I think that there is this huge concept in working with men in particular, as a population, that I want to protect people. I don't want to put this on you. I'm going to hold this so that you can be okay, because it's my job. Yeah, and I think that there's just not the practice.
Sam:Well, I mean, how can you practice when you're actively told to shut it down Right To your face?
Andre:I think a lot of professions that men tend to be in tend to reinforce that. A lot of activities that men stereotypically enjoy don't necessarily lead to a bunch of emotional expressions. So I think what I've learned the most is in doing this work with men so far is that they already have the skill. It's not that I'm teaching them the skill. I think it's just creating the venue to release it.
Sam:Yeah, it's such an interesting idea because I call it therapy by proxy. To see you skills, coping strategies, understanding introspection. They take that in relation with others and start acting differently, talking differently, relating differently to people. So I'm interested like and you may not have the answer to this, which is fine.
Andre:Yeah.
Sam:The effect that the quote unquote therapy by proxy has when a man is in therapy and then going out to groups where they might not talk with their friends.
Andre:You know, I think, if nothing else and it might be the most subtle answer but awareness, I think there's a difference between like your example, right Going through that experience, and being like yeah, I don't know, I didn't whatever To like, oh, like I can have a feeling about this too, and my feeling about it doesn't have to be nice. Like I can have an opinion about this and I don't have to package this opinion to then send it out.
Sam:To caretake.
Andre:I think that that actually I'm glad you used that word and working with men in particular, I don't think men are recognized as caretakers, and that is a common theme in the men I've worked with is so many of them are caretakers. It's just in a way that I don't think is celebrated or observed.
Sam:Or recognized as caretaker. Yeah, it might be labeled differently.
Andre:And I think a lot of times some of the men are keeping it in as an act of caretaking?
Sam:Do you find that they really they want to do those things, but they've gotten this messaging that that's not okay?
Andre:I think I would agree with that. I think there's almost a message of like I want to be able to express, and I think that you know, and the clients I work with, they want to be able to express, they want to be able to share, they want to that connection. But there are, you know, I think there's a block to being able to express, when you know that what I want to express doesn't it might not be nice and comfortable and easy.
Sam:The hard discussions.
Andre:The hard discussions, like the fact that I'm angry. Well, I know I'm not supposed to show anger, so I'm going to keep that in to protect you, to show care for you, when actually maybe expressing that anger in a healthy way is what leads to more emotional connection.
Sam:And expressing needs.
Andre:And depth expressing needs. So, yeah, I think that taking guys outside has been really fun, and it is really fun because I think it shows them that the work of therapy doesn't have to be uncomfortable, it doesn't have to be awkward. Well, I might make it awkward, I don't know.
Sam:But it's a delightful way, thank you.
Andre:It can be like the work of therapy can be uncomfortable and it can be playful.
Sonia:Yes.
Andre:Right and when they go back to their real life without me you know, I think I hope that that translates the idea that you know I can, if I can, feel an uncomfortable emotion in therapy, in a setting that's comfortable to be in, in a setting that's beautiful.
Sam:And I'm still here, and I'm still here.
Andre:Maybe I can say that. Thing.
Sam:And you're modeling what it's like to be emotionally vulnerable and supported in a relationship with another man.
Andre:Yeah, yeah, it's been really fun, and I think that that's the thing is that therapy does not have to be scary, it does not have to be.
Sonia:It's so beautiful. It can be really, really just a life-changing experience.
Andre:Therapy can feel like play.
Sonia:Yeah.
Andre:You know, and you might cry, and it can happen outdoors.
Sam:It's the fullness of being a human therapy involved.
Andre:I think that you hit that the fullness of being human. I think everyone has a range of emotions. I think the population that I'm working with might not always have the permission, either from themselves or from social conditioning, to access the full range. It's there, they have it, they experience it, they feel it, but to express it. I think that's maybe the piece I really care about.
Sonia:I think that's what I've been getting through. Our conversation today is you're not just destigmatizing therapy and mental health care for just men, but you're also working on the societal guidelines and stipulations that have been put on men, people that identify as men that you have to be this way. These are the answers that are expected of you. These are the reactions that are expected of you, and anything out of that makes everybody uncomfortable.
Andre:And I think that you hit it, Sonia, because there are no shoulds in nature, right. Especially, you know you can't control it, you just have to lean in.
Sam:When you got trees grown out of rocks.
Andre:anything is possible, and I say that to the clients when we do our intake right, like there may be a bee that sings you there, maybe a eagle that comes out and attacks you, probably not.
Sam:You could fall down a hill.
Andre:If that happens in Tacoma, wow, that would be actually kind of cool, incredible. But you could fall down a hill, you could trip, we could see someone you know, you could have an emotion come up in a place that you don't want it to come up because you were outside. Well, you're not always gonna get to have your emotions in private, you know. So I think that that's outdoor therapies risky for the client, emotionally risky right, you could have an emotion come up in a place where you don't want it to come up.
Sonia:Which is something I think a lot of men deal with is that you have to feel those things in private.
Andre:Yes.
Sam:So a lot of people experience that If you're gonna cry, save it for the shower.
Andre:So let's practice having your emotions in a place where, yeah, we're in a private-ish setting, right, we're out, maybe by the waterfront or something like that.
Sam:It's not like we're surrounded by people, but you could have an emotion come up right, and that speaks to dealing with the fact that other people are gonna be potentially uncomfortable about your emotions. Exactly but it's not your responsibility to tear for the other people.
Andre:You can't manage it right, so let's practice not managing it.
Sam:That's their work to do.
Andre:Yeah, exactly, group therapy, therapy.
Sam:Therapy by proxy forcefully.
Andre:Exactly right. Yeah, let's. I think outdoor therapy is about letting go of the management, letting it be, letting it show up, being present with it.
Sam:I'm sorry we have to let go of control or perceived fake control. Yeah right, how dare you? Yeah gross.
Sonia:Oh, Barf Andre how did you land here? As like, this is your niche, this is your specialty.
Andre:Yeah, that is such a. You know, I think we've hit on a lot of themes. This has kind of been like therapy for me today.
Sam:It's a real. Yeah right, you two are good, We'll send you the end.
Andre:Yes, send it, bill it. But you know, I think that there's an aspect of giving up control and realizing what fits you.
Sonia:And.
Andre:I think I've had to do that dance, I know, with my supervisor. When I first came into the idea of, like, I want to do things outdoors, right yeah, it was like does this exist? Well, I've learned it does. Okay, how do I do it? Okay, I guess I'm not and, by the way, I'm not an expert on this. I am in the sandbox too. I'm playing too.
Sam:I'm also very wary of anybody who says they're expert on anything, because that says that there's a definitive end that you've reached, which is not this profession. This profession is continually.
Andre:I'm going to grow alongside my client, right, and they will see me make mistakes, which hopefully gives them permission to make mistakes. But you know, I think, in terms of how I've landed on burnout well, I went through burnout how I've landed on working with people in stress and anxiety and life changes I am in a life change. In my career I've dealt with stress, I've had anxiety. So, you know, I think that's the thing to realize is that as therapists, we show up with the same things our clients show up with, with working with men in particular. That wasn't a population that was like I'm going to be a men's therapist, but I think naturally it's just kind of organically grown to. Those are the people that have so far generally been seeking me out more so, and I'm enjoying the work with them, so let's go into it.
Sam:It's beautiful, your clients will always find you, and it's just also speaking to the right fit If somebody does not like to do outdoor stuff. If you're not there, vibe, then it's not going to work.
Andre:So being very specific is helpful Of what your ideal client is, and I think that's the thing we go on psychology today, and it's looking for our own therapist or looking at colleagues, and there are a million options.
Sam:So whatever therapy you, need is there. Oh yeah, so frustrating. Even looking for my own therapist and knowing the back end of it, I'm like. I selected these filters.
Sonia:You actually are not it.
Sam:But, you've gone through and selected everything so you could be found and that does not serve anyone. Yeah.
Andre:I mean. So whatever, I'm not the fit for everyone. I shouldn't be, I can't be.
Sam:I'll try, but you know what do you need me to be? I'll be it.
Andre:Exactly exactly. But you know, whatever outdoor therapy I think is for people who learn by doing, willing to take a risk and maybe even need a risk Right, outdoor therapy I think is fantastic for people who, you know, maybe their emotions are right at the surface but they haven't been given the safety to express it. So I think kind of bringing them to a space where anything can happen shows them that, yeah, you know what anything can happen in life too. You're okay.
Sam:And are you open also to seeing female identifying folks?
Andre:Absolutely, ladies, call me, yeah, absolutely.
Sonia:That's so lovely. What has been your favorite outdoor therapy session or like the activity Cause? I know you leave it up to your clients, but I'm just curious.
Andre:Yeah.
Sonia:What do you really enjoy?
Andre:In terms of like sessions I've done with clients. Yeah, I did this session with a client on a paddleboard. Honestly, that was fun and that was playful and that was very, very me, and there was many times where I'm like, oh, this is a liability, that you know what. We're having a great time and it worked out.
Andre:There's informed consent, there's understanding of discussion, Exactly but you know what quite honestly like, as somebody who is a doer by nature right, I'm an active person my favorite things to do with client is to make them be still, I think, especially because there's a resistance to that, there's a discomfort with that.
Sam:It's almost like yeah, because being still it can be scary.
Andre:And I think that clients that have reached out to me I think I, you know oftentimes I think, have a perception that we're gonna go have an adventure. Yeah well, we maybe, but more than that. That's not the purpose of this. The purpose is we're gonna use the space and be in it and I think, you know, maybe even giving someone I had a client that I gave them some silence, right Some moment, to not talk, just to be there, to orient to the space. Then we had our conversation. That is my favorite thing to do with people not to let's keep the excitement going, because I think that keeping the excitement and the adventure and the movement of nature therapy going well, that's pretty consistent with most people's lives. We're always on the move. People are comfortable with that. What people aren't as comfortable with, and I think where the benefit lies, can you be in the space? Can you sit still, can you? Can you not? Can you have silence, can you?
Sam:be with yourself, Not in this capitalist society. You've got to keep moving. How dare you?
Sonia:You're productive all the time.
Sam:Even in rest. Yeah, there's no such thing.
Andre:Me stepping out as a facilitator, giving them a little space in the environment. I'm there, I'll come back to them. I mean, they are paying me, so we are gonna do therapy.
Sam:Well, I mean, that is there, that is therapy, but I do.
Andre:Let's let nature guide them into the session. Let's let, let's let people don't take the time to be in their surroundings and just be present, notice their thoughts, collect how they feel, notice what's going on in their body, ground themselves. Ground themselves. Give this person space to do that. That's my favorite thing to do with a person. Okay.
Sam:I am a person and I'm like, yeah, andre sounds like a good fit for me or hey, this could be beneficial. But I'm afraid and I don't know where to start. What would you tell them?
Andre:Sure, you know, I think that if you think it's good for you, it probably will be right Like we'll have fun with it. I don't have any preset idea of how it should go. You're creating it with me, right? So whether we're just sitting outside, whether we're walking and talking, whether we might at some point introduce a fun, creative activity, you're creating it with me. So if you think it's going to be good, it will be good because you're my co-creator. If you're resistant, I would say challenge yourself to look at what that resistance is. Maybe there's something we can do experimentally and use, like the play of going outside to see. You know, whatever that resistance is is probably showing up in multiple areas of your life. Let's go outside and use it as a lab.
Sam:So if there's something in you that says this might be helpful, but there is a resistance there, you would start with the resistance.
Andre:I think so. Yeah, I think so because whatever you're resisting, it's not that you're. You know, no one's resisting going on outside. People like outside, generally right, but there's something. Are you resisting the unknown? Are you resisting the risk? Are you resisting, is it? Or is it just like you know? I don't have, I don't know where the walls are of this?
Andre:right, yeah, that's such a good point, and there are no walls in outdoor therapy, and I think most of the clients I've seen have never been to therapy before, so they're kind of into they're jumping in the deep end with me. But you know, for those who feel a this might not be, for me, this feels uncomfortable. There's something holding me back. I think this first place we'd wanna start is well, what's holding you back? Cause whatever's holding you back from going outside and doing therapy, that hold back is somewhere else too possibly, and going outside and doing therapy doesn't mean it's a workout.
Sonia:You are not a personal trainer?
Andre:No, no, yes, thank you for that You're not a guide.
Sonia:Yeah, you're not a guide. We're not closing the rings on our Apple watch.
Sam:We're not teaching you about trees.
Andre:Yes, and that is it too right Like I'm not. If you're looking to go learn about botany, if you're looking to go get fit by hiking or if you're looking for just a hike anybody to talk to, I'm not that person. That is not therapy, that's super beneficial, right. Like go outside, go get fresh air. It's not just going to the park, it's not just, you know, being active, doing something fun, you know working on fitness or interest and whatnot. It is being in that place, being present, with yourself. You know grounding and allowing, allowing right.
Sam:It's allowing. The world isn't the thing, it's the tool.
Andre:Right yeah, so yeah. In a nutshell, I would say outdoor therapy is not, it's not personal fitness, it's not me being a guide, it is us going to an unknown and being able to experience it and sit with it.
Sonia:Perfectly said.
Sam:Thanks. So if this fictional person or real people, in the world would like to connect with you and potentially work with you. Where can they find you?
Andre:Yeah, so for one. Please follow me on Instagram at openroadwellness, or you can find me through email at well, we'll give you my website, that's easier Openroad-wellnesscom.
Sonia:Perfect, and we'll have all of that listed as well in the show notes.
Sam:Awesome, make it easy.
Andre:This was so fun.
Sam:We're so glad you were here.
Andre:Yeah, this is great. This was blast. I'd love to come back.
Sam:Oh, definitely.
Sonia:Yeah we are just creating community and we just so appreciate you being a part of our community. Hope you enjoyed the forced friendship.
Andre:We might have to take this podcast outside next time. I was actually just thinking about that last night, you all, I am she's like I will not be here.
Sonia:No, I love a good walk. I love sitting by the water paddle boarding. I might fall into the water.
Sam:I wanted to go, like on Point Rustin, with one of those mobile like mics and just ask people what are your thoughts on therapy? I just want to know. I say, what do you think of therapy?
Andre:Next time I'm here I would love to come back. We gotta go outside.
Sam:That's the goal.
Sonia:Okay, deal, done, done, done.
Andre:Thanks.
Sam:Andre, thank you.
Andre:Thank you, this was blast.
Sam:We're done now. Bye. Mental Break it Down is produced and edited by Sam and Sonia. Our logo was created by the amazing art of Andoi. If you have any questions, comments or have a topic you want discussed on the podcast, email us at mentalbreakitdownatgmailcom or connect with us on Instagram at mentalbreakitdown. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Nothing said in this podcast constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis or creates a counselor-client relationship. It is not intended to provide medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are theirs alone. Thanks for listening. Bye.