Financial Therapy with Haylie Castillo, LICSWA, CFT-1
Sep 20, 2023Episode 3
Green Coast Counseling
Ever puzzled over the intricate bond between our psyche, emotions, and money? Join us as we navigate the fascinating labyrinth of financial therapy with the insightful Haylie Castillo. Hailey, a certified financial therapist and licensed clinical social worker associate, skillfully unpacks how our relationship with money is often a mirror of other relationships in our lives. She sheds light on how societal standards and beliefs passed down from caregivers mold our financial habits. But it doesn't stop there. Hailey offers an interesting perspective on the divergence between a financial planner and a financial therapist.
Haylie's expertise expands further into the realm of financial trauma, pinpointing its signs and suggesting paths towards cultivating a healthier monetary relationship. She offers thought-provoking insights on how early attitudes towards money, formed as soon as age eight, shape our financial behaviors. Regardless of income, money is a critical component of our lives. We round off the conversation with practical advice and tips on creating a balanced financial blueprint and managing finances. So tune into this eye-opening episode of Mental Break it Down for a deep dive into the crossroads of mental health and monetary wellness.
Ever puzzled over the intricate bond between our psyche, emotions, and money? Join us as we navigate the fascinating labyrinth of financial therapy with the insightful Haylie Castillo. Hailey, a certified financial therapist and licensed clinical social worker associate, skillfully unpacks how our relationship with money is often a mirror of other relationships in our lives. She sheds light on how societal standards and beliefs passed down from caregivers mold our financial habits. But it doesn't stop there. Hailey offers an interesting perspective on the divergence between a financial planner and a financial therapist.
Haylie's expertise expands further into the realm of financial trauma, pinpointing its signs and suggesting paths towards cultivating a healthier monetary relationship. She offers thought-provoking insights on how early attitudes towards money, formed as soon as age eight, shape our financial behaviors. Regardless of income, money is a critical component of our lives. We round off the conversation with practical advice and tips on creating a balanced financial blueprint and managing finances. So tune into this eye-opening episode of Mental Break it Down for a deep dive into the crossroads of mental health and monetary wellness.
Connect with us of you have questions, want to be on the podcast, or have topics you want discussed!
Sam:
Welcome to Mental Break it
Sam:
Down a podcast for therapists and the therapy curious, where we dig into all things mental health and mental health adjacent. We're so happy you're here, let's jump in. Hi everybody, welcome to Mental Break it Down. I'm Sam and I'm Sonia and we're here today with our friend and colleague, hailey Castillo. Hello, hello, hello.
Haylie:
Welcome. We're so excited to have you here today. Thank you, I'm excited to be here.
Sam:
And we're going to be talking about financial therapy. That's right, exciting. Do you want to introduce yourself?
Haylie:
Sure, so I'm Haylie Castillo. I am a licensed clinical social work associate and a certified financial therapist, and that's what I do. I do financial therapy.
Sam:
And we're going to talk about what that actually means. So kind of a big broad overview. What is financial therapy?
Haylie:
Sure. So financial therapy is a specialized area of therapy, much like other specialized areas of therapy like grief therapy, immigration therapy, sex therapy, couples therapy that focuses on helping folks with their emotions and psychology around money.
Sonia:
Okay, I'm just going to say it On your Instagram. You've talked about the relationship with money. So is it fair to say that you work on the relationship with money.
Haylie:
Yes, that's how. That's my take on financial therapy. I come from a very relational place, yes, so I love calling it your relationship with money, just like you have a relationship with almost anything else.
Sam:
Yes, and what does a relationship with money look like?
Haylie:
Or can it look like Sure? Well, I actually find that it typically mirrors other relationships in your life a lot of times. So if you have had a complicated relationship with your parents, or if you've had a complicated relationship to something more abstract like power, it can definitely reflect that type of relationship, okay.
Sam:
So is it like your, almost like your attachment style can influence you.
Haylie:
That can be. Yeah, that's a way to think about it.
Sonia:
Yes, Can you break it down into like super layman's terms? So if somebody is Googling, what are they typing in to find you?
Haylie:
That's actually a really good question, because I'm still figuring that out, but a lot of times it looks like why am I bad with money? Because in that I'll break that down. Okay, so that typically comes from an internalized belief that we were handed from society or from our caregivers somebody that being good with money equals something. Typically it means having a lot of money, or making a lot of money or not having debt, for example, and so you're equating your self-value, like who you are as a person, whether you're good or bad, with the fact that your financial situation is in some sort of, that you have debt or that you maybe feel like you should have a better job, or so on and so forth. And so that's an internalized personalization of that belief and it comes out as why am I bad with money?
Sam:
Bad and good? Yes, because money is morally neutral.
Haylie:
That's my belief and it's a tool.
Sam:
Correct, and so you're working with people to really dig deep into why they are how they are with money and how they view it.
Haylie:
Yes, I view money as a mirror actually, and a little bit of a megaphone, but mostly a mirror. So I'll explain that.
Sam:
Yeah.
Haylie:
So a lot of times your financial behaviors reflect kind of what's going on inside of you, your beliefs. For example, if you struggle with emotional spending, it's even in the name, but it's because you have an emotional need that's not being met. It's not because you're a bad person, it's because you're struggling with loneliness. I know a lot of people coming out of COVID. We spent a lot of money online or you know elsewhere just to try to fill that emotional need right or different examples of that. But it's a mirror of what's happening inside of you. Also, it can be kind of an amplifier, if you will, meaning that I do hold the belief that money is morally neutral and it's just. It amplifies who you are. So in our current society, I would argue that most of the people who hold the most amount of money are not great people and hold really great altruistic values, and so you see that amplified by the amount of money that they hold. However, you can also find people who hold a lot of money who do have really great values, and that's amplified, yeah.
Sonia:
And they're so generous with that money and what they can do, because money brings power in a lot of instances. So yeah what do you do with that?
Sam:
Okay, but it's not the money, it's your core values.
Sonia:
Yeah, yes, exactly Okay, just so for everyone that's listening, because financial therapy is new for me. I hadn't heard of it before I met you and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so cool, this is so needed. So, just to clarify you are not a financial planner, correct? That is not what you do Okay, correct. But is there some dipping into finances and what it looks like for a?
Haylie:
client. Yes, so I do incorporate financial coaching. We look at the numbers, we pull up the spreadsheets, that sort of thing. However, it might be helpful to kind of delineate between what a financial planner does and then what a financial therapist does. So, simply put, a financial planner is the person who can help you make the plan, for example, a budget, a spending plan. I'm the person who helps you figure out why you struggle sticking to that plan or why you have overwhelming feelings about the budget, and we can delve into those emotions behind there.
Sam:
Yeah, Okay, you're the why and the what. Yes, financial planners are the how. Yes, okay.
Sonia:
It's so cool. I have so many questions. So what is like the bulk of your work when you have clients? What do you find yourself working on the most?
Haylie:
So I typically love to start with your money story, is what I call it. And actually can I ask both of you Justin's an example of kind of, to give an example of maybe what at first dipping your toe in, we won't do a full session don't worry.
Haylie:
So your money story is basically how you grew up with money and then what beliefs you may have taken from your money story along the way. So I want each of you to just think back to a money memory of some sort when you were younger. Mm-hmm, it can be anything. Maybe it was a time when you remember feeling rich, or when you remember feeling poor.
Sam:
Oh, it was like because we didn't have a ton of money growing up, but my mom would take on extra jobs during the holidays and I would literally walk out with like the Christmas tree it's like presents stacked around the Christmas tree my mom's half dead right Cause she's been working for weeks and weeks and weeks but this was the only opportunity and the excuse to then, like, really dive in and money, and spending was a reward too Okay.
Sam:
So, as I grow older, I found myself like anytime I had any extra money, I was like I'm gonna treat myself, I'm not gonna have it again. So, then it was like an a tied to an emotion, Like you said, emotional spending.
Haylie:
Yeah, so that would be an example of a money script or the belief, often subconscious right, that affects the way that you spend your money or that you interact with your money right, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So in this case it's money can be spent to reward yourself or to treat yourself.
Sam:
Mm-hmm.
Haylie:
A lot, a lot, yeah, yeah.
Sonia:
I guess I'll talk about the treating yourself part I very quickly. I think, coming from an immigrant background, money is you, save it, you, save it, save it, save it because you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. Yes, and debt is a big no-no, and in this country if you don't have any debt or you can't, you don't show a history of debt and paying that off you have no credit right. And that's bad credit.
Sonia:
When you don't have credit, you have bad credit, right? So that was something I had to wrap my head around. But as far as like treating yourself, I'll tell my apple juice story. So this was many years ago. I'm a full grown adult at this point, but I grew up with this. You save it. You only buy the things that you need, and you never know when you need to tap into your safety net, right, mm-hmm.
Sonia:
So I was in the grocery store and I'm shopping for my essentials and I see this little tiny probably four to six ounces glass bottle of organic, cold pressed raw apple juice. I didn't need it, but I wanted it. Something about that apple juice that day said get this. And of course it was like six, seven dollars. For what? Right, less than a cup of coffee, right? And in my head I was like you don't need this, sonya, you don't need this. But I also wanted it and so I purchased it Best apple juice I've ever tasted in my life. And it was a moment of me saying I don't need this, but I can afford it and it's not going to break the bank and I'm not dipping into my safety net. It is a small purchase that brought me immense joy, yeah, and I was also not uncomfortable with spending that money on that apple juice.
Sonia:
Yeah, whereas before I would have been completely uncomfortable and felt guilt and shame. Yes, because it's a treat, it's not a necessity. Right, and just doing that it made me feel secure in my financial standing. I can do this and I'm okay. I'm intentional and I can afford this and still make wise financial decisions. And I haven't purchased it, since it was a one time thing, but it felt so good yeah.
Haylie:
Yeah, yeah, that was a joyful purchase. Yes, you were using your money to be able to celebrate life somehow.
Sonia:
Yeah, yeah, and you talk about spending on joy.
Haylie:
Talk to us a little bit about that. So, historically, the personal finance space has been very rigid, in the sense of very much along the lines of what you were sharing, sonia, of the rules, the do's, the don'ts Don't have debt, don't spend on things that you shouldn't until you reach a certain type of level, that sort of thing.
Sam:
Well, you hear it all the time. Yeah, Like you could afford it by a house if you don't have avocado, toaster or coffee.
Haylie:
Exactly, exactly, and it's really based in these shame tactics honestly, when you really get down to it. And so that's one of the reasons why I am very clear about practicing shame-free financial therapy. But, along with that, our capitalistic society, typically, just when you get down to the root of it, value equals productivity. Right, you need to have a result. You need to be able to see what you spent your money on, or it needs to be very tied to something tangible.
Sam:
You need to be able to prove it and show it off, right.
Haylie:
Right, whereas a lot of life in general is lived outside of the tangible things. Right, like there's so many intangible things in life that have immense value, like joy, like pleasure, like imagination, creativity, beauty, right, the things that kind of fill out the. I see it as kind of like a whole. If our humanity is kind of this globe, I think that's Like you've got kind of the typical masculine side of the, where personal finance has typically resided right, like the very tangible things, the results-oriented, the very structural type of thing, but then also you've got this feminine side to humanity where the more intangible things of life reside, like the beauty, like the creativity, like the joy, and to me I'm attempting to bring full humanity back into full personal finance. Bust the binary of finance.
Sam:
Yes, yeah, it's far more fluid than that, right.
Haylie:
Yeah, so what I'm doing, that is choosing to budget for and plan for the intangible but valuable things of life.
Sam:
To not discount what you actually want for what other people think you should have. Yes, if somebody is out there thinking like, oh, this sounds interesting, I might need this, I might need help, what would you say to them? How would they know that this would be beneficial for them?
Haylie:
Sure, so you typically don't need financial therapy right off the bat. If you're just needing start with, I would say start with kind of basic financial education. If you didn't get that, like most of us in the millennial bucket for sure, right.
Sam:
Be good with money, but we're not going to tell you how Right Exactly You're just supposed to figure it out.
Sonia:
Figure it out.
Haylie:
Yeah. So start there. There's so much free material great shame free material out there. Just kind of dip your toe in to just like get yourself educated and litter it around it. What, while you're doing that, or once you've kind of got a foundation of that, if you're still noticing that you're feeling these overwhelming feelings around trying to interact with your money, or that you do notice that you're that you keep falling back into kind of these old habits maybe of like overspending, emotional spending, getting into debt, getting getting out of it and then getting right back in those sorts of things which are very normal, by the way that would be the best time to reach out to a financial therapist.
Haylie:
So then are you finding that people that come to you, they're in like a transitional period in their life divorce, after maybe an illness or yeah, a lot of times I do notice doesn't always have to be, but a lot of times I do notice that there has been kind of a life event of some sort that has kind of brought all of this to the forefront getting pregnant, having becoming parents, wanting to prepare for buying a house or having some sort of a health, having to navigate the health care system, which is one of the most stressful financial type of things that we can experience, unfortunately, in this country.
Haylie:
But yeah yeah, it's something. Something usually kind of brings that up to the forefront.
Sam:
Do you think it's helpful for somebody to pursue financial therapy after they've done they're a more personal, individual therapy. Do you do that at the same time? Yes to both.
Haylie:
Yes to both. Yeah, I can be definitely a good kind of next step. I guess once you've kind of developed some skills, you have some tools in your toolbox already that then we can use and start applying specifically to your relationship with money.
Sam:
Yeah, and how does working with you usually look like? Because we're basically familiar with like individual therapy you see on TV you talk and whatnot, but like how does the financial therapy differ?
Haylie:
Not much really. We meet weekly, bi-weekly sessions typically. Yeah, very similar to typical therapy, except, I will say the one caveat is that it does tend to be a little bit more of a short term type of therapy in the sense of I've just noticed my clients and I usually have relationships or we work together between six months to a year. It just kind of on average. Yeah, it just kind of ends up being within that time range.
Sam:
Do you find that there's more like concrete goals with the financial therapy?
Haylie:
Typically there is yeah, good question. We kind of have both. Honestly, I'll help you explore what does a healthy relationship with money mean to you? You know, let's try to identify some of those things and then also, yeah, so what are some financial goals that you actually do have? And then we'll kind of work on those as well.
Sam:
Like you said, it's giving somebody the tools to then move forward and make decisions that are aligned with their core values. Correct, yeah, not much different.
Sonia:
So are you going back back back into time like childhood stuff? Because I think you and I all three of us have talked about financial trauma. So how far back do you typically go with a client?
Haylie:
Good question. So I don't force my clients to go back. You know further than they feel like they need to. However, I do typically find that there's a lot of information in our early years. Actually, behavioral finance experts have found that your core beliefs around money are typically formed by the age of eight.
Sonia:
Wow, I didn't know that.
Haylie:
Yeah, eight, yeah, so whether or not we go all the way back there, we'll mutually discover that. But yeah, financial traumas can definitely happen along the way as well, and sometimes we need to park there first. Okay, yeah, and get you know.
Sam:
Work that out first Tell me more about what financial trauma can look like.
Haylie:
So it's very much along the lines of general trauma.
Haylie:
So if you think of, it can be a one-time event like a car accident, which I think we call big tea trauma in the industry right, or it can be just kind of a longer time period of just unhealthy interactions with it, which is kind of more the little tea trauma. So a bigger tea trauma or one-time event could be something along the lines of like I've had a client share with me that she found she got laid off suddenly and without warning when she was six months pregnant.
Sonia:
Oh yeah, Life change.
Sam:
Yeah, and a very vulnerable time.
Haylie:
In a very vulnerable time, yeah, and then something like you know more of, like an ongoing type of trauma that I've seen could be growing up in poverty, like having a very real experience with scarcity, not having enough. Yeah, oh, it's everywhere.
Sam:
It is everywhere. It's not only like, like you said, the big tea, traumas like the one event, the acute event that you can say. That really messed me up, but it's the continual messaging from parents, the community, those around you, just like you were talking about like the safety and security Sonia.
Sam:
It's so interesting and I'm so glad that we met, because I'm like, yeah, everybody has challenges with money, everybody's struggling, and you just learn to deal with it and figure it out as you go, but then you're realizing that you're explaining to like people who are far older than you would actually credit means. So nobody really knows. We don't actually talk about it.
Sonia:
It's such a taboo topic. It's such a taboo topic.
Sam:
It's death, sex and money.
Sonia:
Yes, there you go, I guess it's great. Yeah, I know in my community you never ask like how much is your house worth or like how much? Do you get paid Like? You just don't talk about money, whether you have a lot of it or whether you have not so much. You just leave it alone.
Sam:
Yeah, don't worry about it.
Sonia:
Yeah, but then you're like boy.
Sam:
Does it come from? How do I get it? How do I manage it? Help me.
Sonia:
Because, at the end of the day, yes, money is not everything, but we do need it to survive. Yeah, you need it to pay for shelter or food or how to get to work. I mean, you have to have money in order to get to work, whether it's buying a bus ticket or paying your gas.
Sam:
Unfortunately, it costs money to walk out.
Sonia:
Yeah.
Haylie:
It costs money to stay in the door.
Sam:
Yeah, like, let's be honest, to breathe and wake up every day costs money.
Sonia:
Yeah, nothing is free in this world, yeah.
Sam:
So your clients have you noticed, are they in like? Because sometimes we think of financial planning that's a rich person's thing, that's a point of privilege. So what kind of backgrounds do your clients tend to come from that are searching this out? Kind of the full spectrum.
Haylie:
Honestly, yeah, yeah, I've worked with clients who have experienced being unhoused, have experienced living in poverty. I also have worked with clients who make seven figures as well, and really one of my friends who's also a financial therapist always says it's never about the money. Uh-huh, A fair yeah. Never actually about the money.
Sam:
Yeah, i-, because if it was just about the money, financial planning would be enough. Correct, would be enough for everybody.
Haylie:
Yes, exactly there, wouldn't-? Yeah, we would all be doing it all the time and we would have no issue. It would all be great and cheap Right.
Sonia:
Because the information is there for free.
Haylie:
You know. You Google. How do I make a budget? How do I invest? You can find it.
Sonia:
Yeah, it's just everything that you bring with you. That is what you're working with, correct. All the background, all the trauma, all the successes quote unquote failures all of that, yes, oh, so great, and I feel like it's so exciting to know that, if this is something that you're struggling with, there's someone out there to help you and guide you and support you through that.
Sam:
There's a niche for everyone there is a niche for everyone.
Sonia:
It's great. I don't think we actually talked about what brought you into financial therapy. How did you get here? Sure, what made it like this is what I want to do.
Haylie:
My passion is to bring humanity back into personal finances. As I've mentioned, my story definitely brought me here. I was raised in the South, in Georgia, very proud of that fact, but that comes with a mixed bag of it being very traditional as far as gender roles and expectations of women, and I was also raised in a high-controller religion where it was extremely patriarchal and I was not taught to have agency over my life In pretty much any capacity. It was more of a reactionary type of energy of I was waiting to be chosen by a man, I was waiting for life to be given to me, type of thing. Other people are taking care of that for me, mainly men.
Sonia:
Other people here.
Haylie:
I got out of that. I married a feminist and it became this very much a life development, self-development type of thing of figuring out okay, now that I do have agency over my life, how do I do that? And I found out that finances were a big part of that. As we mentioned right Through my kind of hopping around through lots of different jobs along the way, one theme really kept coming up was the lack of empowerment that women had around money really. I worked with small business owners for a while. I was a personal assistant to someone who was in an MLM which are highly problematic, by the way, unfortunately not the people in them.
Sam:
The structures MLM multi-level marketing. Yes.
Haylie:
I worked in a nursing home for a while and saw how the healthcare system and elder care can be so expensive and just the lack of safety net and just how finances and kind of yeah, and so it was at every intersection of life how money was such an inherent part, an integral part of our lives and also, paired with that, the lack of agency that people typically people in marginalized communities like women, people of color, people who were lower income kind of experienced. And so that became my passion was to help empower people through healing their relationship with money. And so here I am. Are you on?
Sonia:
for a big trip. What a journey. I've seen money in so many different aspects of life and, like we said, it touches everything and everyone in one way or another.
Sam:
Thank you for coming and sharing everything. Absolutely yeah. Like you said, sonia, even as therapists we didn't know that financial therapy was actually a thing until we met you.
Haylie:
Yeah, it's fairly new, but it's growing.
Sam:
It's growing. It's growing. I mean, let's just be honest. We all need it.
Haylie:
Yeah.
Sam:
Let's join her another, because a lot of us don't have the foundation.
Haylie:
I know, I didn't Sure.
Sam:
And it's been a big learning curve for me. And like the emotions tied up in that, don't even get me started. Or get her started, or get her started we don't have enough time today, but if somebody is interested in working with you, asking you questions or just connecting with you in general, where can you be found?
Haylie:
Sure, so you can find me at my website, castillofinancialtherapycom, or you can also find me on Instagram at C underscore financial underscore therapy Perfect.
Sam:
Tailey, thank you so much for joining us. Yes, thank you.
Sam:
Thank you, it was lovely having you. Mental Break it Down is produced and edited by Sam and Sonia. Our logo was created by the amazing art of Andoi. If you have any questions, comments or have a topic you want discussed on the podcast, email us at mentalbreakitdownatgmailcom or connect with us on Instagram at mentalbreakitdown. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Being said in this podcast constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis or creates a counselor-client relationship. It is not intended to provide medical or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are theirs alone. Thanks for listening. Bye, that's pretty good.